Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
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I wonder what affect a Japanese victory over Spain would have on European racial attitudes. Scientific racism was still a century and a half away at this point, so an Asiatic state defeating the largest European empire could significantly alter European racial attitudes, at least towards East Asians. I'm sure anti-East-Asian sentiment would still exist ITTL, but East Asians at the very least couldn't reasonably be viewed as intrinsically inferior (a view that was proven to be BS as early as 1904 and furthermore as East Asia rose in prosperity over the 20th Century). Then again, the Japanese could just be included as honorary whites with nothing else changing.
Tbf I just see any successful state that modernises to be seen as 'honorary whites' while colonising anyone who's weak.
The Iberian Union helped Brazilian expansion (It most likely would still have happened without it, however), so it's likely some more regions of Argentina and Paraguay IOTL become part of Brazil (Such as the Argentinian Mesopotamia, which was almost conquere by the bandeirantes IOTL (Though this was after the Iberian Union).
I think that depends on if this Japan will follow the pattern set by TTL europeans and OTL Japan
So far they have taken no part on the african slave trade(and why would they?), took actions against slavers taking japanese citizens and supported religious tolerance
All done out of pragmatism of course and not some sense of superior morality of the Azuchi Shogunate, but if they keep this up they'll genuinely look better than the western powers by comparison and as of now they have no reason to follow the european example since, unlike OTL, they are not lagging behind needing to catch up with the West in the vain hope of being seen as equals
In fact beating the most powerful european powers simultaneously after just having made contact with them nit so long ago will make Japan confidence on it's own ways and make many westerns back home reconsider their approach towards foreign nations
So far they have taken no part on the african slave trade(and why would they?), took actions against slavers taking japanese citizens and supported religious tolerance
All done out of pragmatism of course and not some sense of superior morality of the Azuchi Shogunate, but if they keep this up they'll genuinely look better than the western powers by comparison and as of now they have no reason to follow the european example since, unlike OTL, they are not lagging behind needing to catch up with the West in the vain hope of being seen as equals
In fact beating the most powerful european powers simultaneously after just having made contact with them nit so long ago will make Japan confidence on it's own ways and make many westerns back home reconsider their approach towards foreign nations
This is where the Europeans' understanding of East Asian political systems will play a key role, since it will likewise colour their perceptions about this.
Hence, I will personally define them as the following:
- The Chinese Huangdi being universally recognised in diplomacy as the overlord of all under the heaven by the countries of the Orient: a traditional status far more prestigious than the post of Roman Emperor had ever been so as to afford them the ability to refuse any pretenses of diplomatic equality, this can even be defined as a new concept which I'll call Dominus. This is in addition to being the sovereign of the Chinese Empire.
- The Wang (Kings) as defined by the Chinese Nobility and Tributary system: not much of a problem since in most cases - the title actually coincides with the actual sovereign of the defined kingdoms.
- The Japanese Daijo-Daijin: an actual distinction is important here since - even if the Oda clan "own" the actual state and the "Kingdom" - they're not the actual "sovereign" of the Japanese realm, a fact that the Chancellorate only insists upon upholding.
- The Japanese Mikado: the actual sovereign as recognised in Japan but which the Chinese don't, this post has been described by the Portuguese as an "Emperor that behaves more like a Pope". Nevertheless, descending from the Chinese structure of governance in the form of his Ritsuryō will nevertheless make the Japanese Mikado a counterpart to the Chinese Huangdi, if only by the virtue of both being emperors that the latter doesn't officially recognise.
- It can be easily concluded that Japan's diplomacy operates on the two pretences of the "Oda Kingdom" and the Mikado's sovereignty. In order to better make sense of this, we can consider the status of being a "King of a Tributary Kingdom" as being similar to that of the Dutch Stadtholder than being an actual sovereign of a territory, especially considering that the Chinese conception of Kings - especially in the context of Chinese noble entitlements - are still subordinate to that of the Huangdi.
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I was thinking about the Spanish or Portuguese taking over some land as the Iberian union splits apart.
Ye Japanese holders of power would feel like stadholders who wield ultimate power in the country, while the Chinese huangdi don't act like anything in Europe. However I think the Europeans will just think of huangdis as emperors and treat the emperors accordingly.
Going by that...
Huangdi = Roman Emperor
Mikado = Japanese Pope
Kings = Kings
Azuchi = Oda's Duchy who actually runs the whole thing
- Europeans
While this - their sovereignty as emperor - can be considered as an apt description of the Huangdi's role within China, this is going to be an addition with the concept of being a Dominus as opposed to it being one and the same.
Japan also happens to be really far from Africa and without any tropical cash crop colonies at the moment, so they really don't have much of a reason to participate in the African slave trade. I'm sure Japan will eventually do some unsavory things in their quest to become a large empire.
Like I said, out of pragmatism not moral
Obviously if they were in the same situation as the europeans they'd do things just as bad, as OTL shows
Maybe, my point is that I doubt they'll follow the european example of Empire-building
If they do end up creating their own Empire then yes there will likely be lots of "unsavoriness" to it but so far they've been setting a better example of how to go about things, which can change or can not depending on how they develope, but Im fairly sure it will not be just taking the european handbook and running with it considering how effective they are being against the strongest powers in the West without having to fundamentally change their ways - so no colonialism driven by a inferiority complex - while also being challenged enough by the westerns that they're aware they're not superior for the sake of superiority and must adapt if they want to survive
They already have ample enough labour supply in the form of the region's natives as well as Chinese immigrants.
nah -
Huangdi - Chinese Emperor - sovereign recognised in China - and Dominus
Mikado - Japanese Emperor - sovereign recognised in Japan - an "unrecognised counterpart" to the Chinese Huangdi
Wang (King) - Chinese noble title endowed by the Huangdi; more similar to Stadtholder especially in the context of the Tributary system
Azuchi/Oda Kingdom - an actual Kingdom as how the Chinese Empire sees it; the Oda-dominated administration appointed by the Mikado as how Japan sees it
If anything, the Japanese will tend to have oligarchical tendencies based around the legacy of its independent daimyos that nevertheless suborn themselves to the Oda Chancellor; if we want to follow on how this will develop overseas, it must be determined first how Iriebashi will integrate and organise the Aborigine tribes of Taiwan.
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Thank you for the support!!
Ngl I have wondered about this myself. There will definitely be a difference in the European outlook on the world in general regardless of who wins the war, although the big changes from OTL are still a long time away.
Azuchi's authority is indeed highly dependent on the power of the willpower of the daijo-daijin himself. The 1620s is on the more oligarchical extreme while Nobunaga's rule was on the more autocratic and central extreme. As of now, Nobutomo's authority and governance is a lot closer to the Nobunaga end of the spectrum.
If you look at old (old!) books showing the races, the Chinese in particular and the Japanese to a lesser degree are drawn with white skin. You don't start getting yellow Asians until sometime after 1800. I think it's a function when the Qing started weakening and the Opium War.
Similarly, Abbasid-era Arabs were super respectful of the Chinese- much more so than other people they discussed.
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Heck the first reports the portuguese made of China talked about how awesome it was that they found another great white kingdom and how the girls there looked spanish
Tbf I still see the the Chinese as white until the 1800s because they'd start to get weak and be forced into concessions while the modernized Asian states stay as 'whites'?
Japan also could colonize the unclaimed siberian lands for quick timber and raw materials.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...sia_1533-1896.gif/1024px-Russia_1533-1896.gif
By observing this. we can see majority of it would be free for next 150 years.
Specially the territory of IRL Manchuria
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...sia_1533-1896.gif/1024px-Russia_1533-1896.gif
By observing this. we can see majority of it would be free for next 150 years.
Specially the territory of IRL Manchuria
