The English Charlemagne: A Plantagenet-Capet TL
- Thread starter Liminia1
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considering that in any case in Otl, even after Philip kindly convinced Clement to accuse of heresy and subsequently decree the dissolution of the Templars, investigations were carried out in the rest of Europe which demonstrated the total innocence of the order, clearly making it clear that the trial in France was a complete farce, even if it should be remembered that the intervention of King Edward II saved numerous knights from certain death, allowing a pass for his French possessions and then for England, perhaps here the situation is enough similar, to be premised on a good part of the French members of the Order to save themselves by finding refuge under the Plantagenet monarch, perhaps on the condition that they undertake a campaign in the Holy Land ( so if they fail they all die, otherwise Philip once again makes a terrible impression on the international ) although technically to be precise, Philip never had Bonifacio VIII killed, he died of natural causes due to the humiliation suffered and subsequent imprisonment, which worsened his health conditions
Creative interpretation/legends believe that Philip had Boniface killed lol, dying in mysterious circumstances in prison has u do that, the entire thing is very OTL though.
Well it just confusing as hell to me, especially when you cannot tell who is talking to who
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I don't understand. If the Plantagenets take over, how will this in any way bring renown to the English? They will just be culturally erased under the weight of France. A Plantagenet Charlemagne is just another French Charlemagne.
Also the Plantagenets were not English kings, they were actually kings of England.
Like Victoria was not an Indian Empress...
Also the Plantagenets were not English kings, they were actually kings of England.
Like Victoria was not an Indian Empress...
actually the assimilation of the English identity into the French one is a quite probable risk ( given the disparity in numbers, around 13 million versus around 1.5 million ), but considering that such a sovereign will be the undisputed aspiring continental hegemon, it is easier to see the creation of a different cultural identity which rather Capetian France takes inspiration from Franks / Normans or even Romans is that it unites the various nuances present in the kingdom ( including the English one ) after all, this renewed Carolingian kingdom in the making will have great expansionist aspirations in Iberia and HRE ( Italy first and foremost ) so future sovereigns will probably try to promote a new, more inclusive culture, perhaps along the lines of the label that the Arabs and Byzantium gave to the crusaders ( Latins/Ifranji )
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Charlemagne was a German speaking barbarian, didn’t stop him from getting appropriated by both the Germans and the French.
not German speaking but Germanic speaking, specifically Frankish, which Germans never spoke and it was phased out for French. The only modern people who speak a language related to Frankish are the Netherlanders, as far as I am aware.
And political identity has more to do with the state succession of France being the direct continuation of the Frankish realm, rather than any specific court language which evolved over time.
And due to the split succession shenanegans of the Franks, both Germany and France have a clear line of descent from the common ancestor that was the state of Francia. So it's a bit unfair to say Germans and French "appropriated" Charlemagne
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I would also add Italy as an indirect daughter of the Carolingian empire, even if I prefer the version that my teacher used at school, that is to think of Charlemagne as the father of Europe, furthermore I hate the term Barbarian in reference to it ( since by doing so, we ignore the fact that for the Romans of the Urbe, who acclaimed him as Caesar ( and over the previous decades awarded him the title of senator and patrician, furthermore, already after the conquest of Pavia in 774, many people saw in Charles a revived Constantine, even people who were not part of his court ), he was not a " simple barbarian ", but rather a individual worthy of the purple and therefore willingly recognized his imperial coronation by their most important political exponent ( the pontiff ) as legitimate, it must be remembered that the Romanitas had many nuances, and was not limited only to the Constantinopolitan vision of it, so why not let's recognize that there were two ( equally correct ) ideas of what it was to be a Roman instead of limiting ourselves to the perennial problem of who was more "true" Roman than the other ( which however is a reductive and slightly idiotic argument ) let's say that I am more in tune with the opinion of Louis II in his Kaiserbreif sent to the court of Basil I, where he rightly stated that the Roman emperors came from various regions and peoples, so why couldn't there have been an Augustus of Frankish origin ?
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It’s a joke in reference to the idea that Edward III would not be seen as English.
Status Update Regarding This TL
New
Hello again, I know that this TL hasn't been updated in 10 days. (The betrayal I know, I'm sorry) But I do think all of you deserve to know that unfortunately my co-author @eliamartin65 will be taking a hiatus from this TL for the time being due to personal reasons. I guess you can rewrite it as good news meaning I am now sole author for the time being and I will be writing this TL as I see fit, so expect a new chapter coming very soonish. (UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR)This will be my experimental grounds to practice my personal POVs. I definitely appreciate the lengthy discussion y'all had going on about this TL and its history behind it. It'll be of immense help for me 
If you read my original version of my First TL you know I love teasers so here you go:
The goblet drops onto the table when I broke the news. Instantly I saw my father, whose expression was so jolly and jovial over this feast and reunion drop. I watched as the servants looked on with his expression morphed ever so slowly from a wide range of emotions into a stone cold face of contempt and perhaps a drizzle of pensiveness. The silence continued to the point where it became deafening. As I began to open my mouth to ask he spoke, "You are all dismissed. Princess of Wales, remain behind." The voice was of a low growl something akin to a silent rage, I couldn't quite remember when I heard this before but suddenly I realized, the last time father spoke like this was 12 years ago, his rage was impossible to quantify back then. I watched without moving even so a muscle as the servants scuffled away hurriedly. I realized something else as they scurried from the table, my father refused to look me in the eyes.
If you read my original version of my First TL you know I love teasers so here you go:
The goblet drops onto the table when I broke the news. Instantly I saw my father, whose expression was so jolly and jovial over this feast and reunion drop. I watched as the servants looked on with his expression morphed ever so slowly from a wide range of emotions into a stone cold face of contempt and perhaps a drizzle of pensiveness. The silence continued to the point where it became deafening. As I began to open my mouth to ask he spoke, "You are all dismissed. Princess of Wales, remain behind." The voice was of a low growl something akin to a silent rage, I couldn't quite remember when I heard this before but suddenly I realized, the last time father spoke like this was 12 years ago, his rage was impossible to quantify back then. I watched without moving even so a muscle as the servants scuffled away hurriedly. I realized something else as they scurried from the table, my father refused to look me in the eyes.
Furthermore, to expand this comment there are 3 details, which I would like to discuss with you now, the first concerns the Luxembourg dynasty which in this period is allied with France, given that Henry was a vassal of Philip ( before becoming Rex Romanorum in 1308 ), furthermore we are close to his obtaining the Bohemian crown for his son John, which made him feel secure enough to be able to undertake his Romzung ( it would be very interesting to see him survive a few more years than Otl, to see some of his political projects in Italy come to fruition : among which a campaign military against the Anjou, to pacify Guelph Tuscany ( to which he wanted to add the foundation and construction of imperial cities in the area, such as Otl Mons Imperialis ) to return to Rome to supervise some building projects ( in Otl only begun, but then immediately stopped due to the his death, such as the construction of a new forum and an imperial palace near the Capitoline Hill, given that Henry held his court in the Urbe ) and the idea of convening a new diet in the peninsula ( the last one convened was under the reign of Frederick II, it would probably be composed mostly starts from Ghibelline exponents, but it would have an enormous propagandistic echo, given that it would demonstrate the return of the imperial government in the region, and that it does not exclusively imply a conflict but rather the opposite ) now another topic to explore would be the military campaigns that John I of Bohemia, made in Italy, in the 1330s, with the aim of creating a dynastic fief in the peninsula ( with the approval of both the king of France and the Pope ) to be precise in the Parmigiano, which were having so success ( among other things, were Charles's first experiences, both in the military and political sphere ) from will convince Mastino II to creating a league against him ( League of Castelbaldo ) the last one concerns the possibility ( certainly not remote ) of seeing the Plantagenets take advantage of the papal stay in Avignon to create their own Pontiff, so as to be able to indirectly govern the entire Catholic hierarchy of Europe, which in the case of building a hegemony would not be a bad thing, given that it would avoid possible friction with the Papacy ( at least until the Plantagenets are consolidated enough to convince the Pope that challenging them is not a good idea, if wants their help to regain control of Rome and take it away from the powerful Capitoline nobility gathered in the senate ) but rather we will be able to initially see a synergy being created
We must also imagine that a joint war between Philip and his nephew Edward against the Flemish cities is possible, in a sort of 2nd round to try to recover royal sovereignty in the region ( previously lost with the treaty of Athis-sur-Orge ) especially with the dual purpose of exploiting England's excellent strategic position as a logistical base for military campaigns and obviously making Edward known to the French nobility ( which would also be a way for Philip to intimidate them and convince them not to try to do some tricks in future, when there will be a "crisis" of succession )
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Can't wait For moreHello again, I know that this TL hasn't been updated in 10 days. (The betrayal I know, I'm sorry) But I do think all of you deserve to know that unfortunately my co-author @eliamartin65 will be taking a hiatus from this TL for the time being due to personal reasons. I guess you can rewrite it as good news meaning I am now sole author for the time being and I will be writing this TL as I see fit, so expect a new chapter coming very soonish. (UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR)This will be my experimental grounds to practice my personal POVs. I definitely appreciate the lengthy discussion y'all had going on about this TL and its history behind it. It'll be of immense help for me
If you read my original version of my First TL you know I love teasers so here you go:
The goblet drops onto the table when I broke the news. Instantly I saw my father, whose expression was so jolly and jovial over this feast and reunion drop. I watched as the servants looked on with his expression morphed ever so slowly from a wide range of emotions into a stone cold face of contempt and perhaps a drizzle of pensiveness. The silence continued to the point where it became deafening. As I began to open my mouth to ask he spoke, "You are all dismissed. Princess of Wales, remain behind." The voice was of a low growl something akin to a silent rage, I couldn't quite remember when I heard this before but suddenly I realized, the last time father spoke like this was 12 years ago, his rage was impossible to quantify back then. I watched without moving even so a muscle as the servants scuffled away hurriedly. I realized something else as they scurried from the table, my father refused to look me in the eyes.
Thank you.
Don't worry, I'm OK. Just university catching up to me and pressure from my mum.