TL-191: Navy Blue and Gray - Naval Forces of the USA and CSA
- Thread starter Sierra
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Hey, that gun is even retractable! I wonder if this would make a good stand-in a good base for a Confederate Great War sub. As in, their standard type.
What about the Second Great War? What kinds of battleships would the Union and the CSA field? I'm sure the Union is fielding battleships as big as the planned Montanas as AFAIK, TL-191 has no equivalent to the WNT.
Good question. I wonder what Germany would be fielding in a world where their submarine development wasn't halted in the 1920's.
The United States Navy may very well have very large battleships like the Montana-class going up against the British and French navies. I feel as if this is a timeline in which the age of the battleship... not quite reaching an end? As if that chapter in naval history is not quite drawing to a close just yet. Large naval engagements possibly involving battleships are still occurring I think, but we're not given any details. Carriers are certainly of critical importance here as well however.
As for the Confederate Navy, well, I have a theory as to what they can possibly do --- retrofitting and reconstructing older ships to keep them up to date with the latest naval advancements. Although it would not be an ideal move for them, I feel it would be one of their better options for their navy when it comes to maintaining or building new battleships, especially since they would really have the manufacturing base to pump out new battleships regularly. In our timeline the Soviets were able to retrofit and reconstruct old Tsarist dreadnoughts, like the Gangut and Petropavlovsk.
^^^ --- Tsarist Russian Battleship Petropavlovsk --- 1911-1917
^^^ --- Soviet Battleship Marat (reconstructed Petropavlovsk)
Perhaps the Confederate Navy, already with precious few heavy-hitting surface ships, may try to do the same thing.
Yeah! And for that matter a timeline where their whole fleet isn't scuttled at Scapa Flow, a timeline in which the High Seas Fleet, despite losing Jutland, still remains intact and afloat. Its quite a collection of ships when compared to the British Royal Navy. Heck, we may even see the Graf Zeppelin even being completed in this timeline, where the Germans finally get their own legit aircraft carrier, with new carrier based fighter planes, bombers, and torpedo planes.
Perhaps that a little optimistic, but it is a Germany that is victorious in this timeline and one that would definitely still keeping advancing its military tech.
Oh, you mean like take inspiration from the Americans to design / copy elements from their carriers to make their own? You think the Germans would do that? Well they certainly would still have the capacity to build ships in this timeline. I wouldn't put it passed them to least copy the USS Remembrance in its early days as a kind of template to make their own.
British E-class submarine, standard submarine of the RN in WWI and a more successful design than the K-class. Armament 4x18 in torpedoes and one 18 in gun.
I think you have gotten mixed up. The E-class was the one with a 12 pounder gun (76mm), the one further up with the large gun was the M2, and the K-class was an unusual design that was armed with several 4in and 3in guns, was extremely long, and used surface ship style steam turbines for power so it could keep up with the fleet.
Can we see battleships matching or even surpassing the Yamato in size be common ITTL?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Graf Zeppelin would never exist in 191. OTL during WWI Germany was converting the Italian Liner Ausonia into a carrier, not named just letter I. Most likely 191 Germany does something similar and has a carrier of their own in the late teens/early 20's and develops from their. Graf Zeppelin was an abomination that resulted from a navy that never really experimented with full deck carriers and a design staff cut to the bone and mismanaged from Versailles restrictions, neither true in 191
Unlikely, ships are close enough to bespoke that their really isn't that much to be gained by doing so vis a vis designing their own. Getting US advice is much more likely
So I managed to make a small list of warships that both the CS Navy and US Navy possessed at one point in time or another. It's not a complete list, but if anyone happens to find more information on any other ships for both navies, you can add to the list here. It would help immensely.
Confederate States Navy:
--- Submarines:
--- Aircraft Carriers:
* = Confederate river monitor sunk by USS Punishment
** = Sam Carsten describes these Confederate ships to be similar to great lakes battleships - we're the heaviest battleships the Confederates could have in the 1920s due to naval restrictions from treaties
*** = ITTL, the Yorktown is an escort carrier instead of a fleet carrier
**** = pre-1914 destroyer, used as training vessel
Confederate States Navy:
--- Submarines:
- CSS Bonefish
- CSS Bonito
- CSS Whelk
- CSS Fort Sumpter
- CSS Swamp Fox
- CSS ??? - unnamed river monitor *
- CSS ??? x4 - four unnamed "coastal defense ships" **
--- Aircraft Carriers:
- USS Remembrance
- USS Sandwich Islands
- USS Yorktown ***
- USS Tripoli
- USS Irish Sea
- USS Oahu
- USS Monitor
- USS Bonne Homme Richard
- USS Trenton
- USS Chapultepec
- USS Dakota
- USS Idaho
- USS Oregon
- USS Maine
- USS New York
- USS Missoula
- USS Avenger
- USS Denver
- USS Perry
- USS Farragut
- USS John Paul Jones
- USS Ericsson
- USS Josephus Daniels
- USS Townsend
- USS O'Brien
- USS Lamson ****
- USS Punishment
- USS Bluefin
* = Confederate river monitor sunk by USS Punishment
** = Sam Carsten describes these Confederate ships to be similar to great lakes battleships - we're the heaviest battleships the Confederates could have in the 1920s due to naval restrictions from treaties
*** = ITTL, the Yorktown is an escort carrier instead of a fleet carrier
**** = pre-1914 destroyer, used as training vessel
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Well, this bears a closer look. Part of me says that there is a possibility of a WNT type compact existing here. The post-war situation in TL-191 could be considered even more potentially volatile than OTL, given that the British and Japanese are still strong in the aftermath of the FGW, the Germans and Americans are just as strong as the British, and potentially at each others throats. Its quite possible, especially under the Sinclair administration with its desire to cut military budgets to fund the Socialists welfare programs, that a similar treaty could be established to control the naval arms race that would be sure to result. It would, of course, be broken down by the Pacific War, when two of the signatories fight, then completely dismantled afterwards, with the US restarting its rearmament to face the challenges of the expansionist Japanese Empire and a revanchist Britain and CSA.
THe German Empire would definitely be a great naval power, given Kaiser Wilhelm's love of the navy. I would, though, see it as a battleship focused force. Kaiser Bill was a meddling sort, and not all that great as a strategist. IN a similar vein to the other navies, the growth of naval aviation would be slow in the Kaiserliche Marine, with the battleships retaining pride of place, though the lessons of the Pacific war would encourage carrier enthusiasts in the German navy. The basic design of Graf Zeppelin, minus some features like the cranes nad compressed air catapults, would be well in line with the sort of early carriers you would see. It could well find a place in the SGW, with i
While I happily defer to the veritable squadron of Navy enthusiasts on these boards more knowledgeable than myself when it comes to matters maritime, one thought that did occur to me was that the Timeline 191 Royal Navy would almost certainly be obliged to maintain its Pacific Station - probably Headquartered at Pearl Harbour* - rather than close it down "On Schedule" in 1905.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Station - I do wonder if the British base at Pearl Harbor would qualify as "His Majesty's Dockyard" (HMD Pearl Harbor) or "His Majesty's Naval Base" (HMNB Pearl Harbor), since proper nomenclature fascinates me for some reason.
*Why yes, that is a highly improper spelling - or rather it would be in every Universe except one where the British were the ones exercising a protectorate over the "Sandwich Isles" and could therefore mandate spelling based on the King's English rather than various strange American innovations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Station - I do wonder if the British base at Pearl Harbor would qualify as "His Majesty's Dockyard" (HMD Pearl Harbor) or "His Majesty's Naval Base" (HMNB Pearl Harbor), since proper nomenclature fascinates me for some reason.
*Why yes, that is a highly improper spelling - or rather it would be in every Universe except one where the British were the ones exercising a protectorate over the "Sandwich Isles" and could therefore mandate spelling based on the King's English rather than various strange American innovations.
While I happily defer to the veritable squadron of Navy enthusiasts on these boards more knowledgeable than myself when it comes to matters maritime, one thought that did occur to me was that the Timeline 191 Royal Navy would almost certainly be obliged to maintain its Pacific Station - probably Headquartered at Pearl Harbour* - rather than close it down "On Schedule" in 1905.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Station - I do wonder if the British base at Pearl Harbor would qualify as "His Majesty's Dockyard" (HMD Pearl Harbor) or "His Majesty's Naval Base" (HMNB Pearl Harbor), since proper nomenclature fascinates me for some reason.
*Why yes, that is a highly improper spelling - or rather it would be in every Universe except one where the British were the ones exercising a protectorate over the "Sandwich Isles" and could therefore mandate spelling based on the King's English rather than various strange American innovations.
Oh, certainly. The Pacific Fleet fought a rather large group of British ships at "Pearl Harbour". THough I must say I think it would convert to its Americanized spelling after the changing of flags. AS I mentioned before, I can see the British making the Dominions pay to help enlarge the fleet, and thus you might see some or all of the Australian, New Zealand, South African, and maybe even Indian (if India is madea Dominion, or the Raj is asked to pay) ships being stationed there.
*Why yes, that is a highly improper spelling - or rather it would be in every Universe except one where the British were the ones exercising a protectorate over the "Sandwich Isles" and could therefore mandate spelling based on the King's English rather than various strange American innovations.
Heheh. And one of the first of many things the Americans are going to do once they get the islands is to remove that pesky "British U" and call it Pearl Harbor.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
One thing I'd think is that the British ships at Pearl Harbor and the Battle of the Three Navies might be Pre Dreads and other such relics of the past
Realistically British priorities will be thus
#2 requires additional modern Battleships and Battlecruisers as a QRF to drive off a raiding US Battlesquadron, as the US should be able to spare one, and they can't escort every convoy with the equivalent of such, so that's probably an extra two battle squadrons or so beyond OTL, which can be built but may strain building capabilities
#3 can borrow forces from #2, but should have some anyways whih probably eats up the rest of what the UK builds over OTL
#4 doesn't really need heavy units, but lots of light/medium units
That leaves #5, likely very few Modern Battleships or Battlecruisers available, so likely pre Dreadnoughts, the best of them, but still those, with maybe the Dominion BC
Realistically British priorities will be thus
- Maintain Control of the North Sea
- Maintain control of the North Atlantic Sea Lanes so that they aren't starved into submission
- Control the Sea routes to Canada and the CSA to keep them in the fight distracting the US
- Keep raiders away from their sea lanes outside the North Atlantic
- Go on the offensive against the US
#2 requires additional modern Battleships and Battlecruisers as a QRF to drive off a raiding US Battlesquadron, as the US should be able to spare one, and they can't escort every convoy with the equivalent of such, so that's probably an extra two battle squadrons or so beyond OTL, which can be built but may strain building capabilities
#3 can borrow forces from #2, but should have some anyways whih probably eats up the rest of what the UK builds over OTL
#4 doesn't really need heavy units, but lots of light/medium units
That leaves #5, likely very few Modern Battleships or Battlecruisers available, so likely pre Dreadnoughts, the best of them, but still those, with maybe the Dominion BC
#3 and #4 are realistically just as associated with Pearl Harbor as #5. The Sandwich Islands are a shield against Americans interfering with the British trade with the Orient, as well as a base to help provide supplies to Canada. Especially once the US cuts off the St. Lawrence, and even more so if the Americans can interdict or even capture Halifax.