Mummies of the Tarim Basin

[Louis XI]

In the western province of Xinjiang, archeologists have unearthed the remains of several mummies whose attire and physical appearance were quite unexpected, to say the least.

According to the article on Wikipedia about the Tarim mummies:

"From the evidence available, we have found that during the first 1000 years after the Loulan beauty the only settlers in the Tarim Basin were Caucasoid. East Asian peoples only began showing up in the Eastern portions of the Tarim Basin about 3,000 years ago, Mair said, while the Uighur peoples arrived after the collapse of the Orkon Uighur kingdom, largely based in modern day Mongolia, around the year 842. (...) DNA sequence showed that the mummies happened to have haplotype characteristic of western Eurasia in the area of south Russia (...) Victor Mair, a University of Pennsylvania professor and project leader for the team that did the genetic mapping, commented that those studies were "extremely important because they link up eastern and western Eurasia at a formative stage of civilization (Bronze Age and early Iron Age) in a much closer way than has ever been done before."
An earlier study by Jilin University had found an mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA, female lines) haplotype characteristic of Western Eurasian populations with Europoid genes.
The textiles with the mummies are of an early European textile and weave type and are similar to textiles found on the bodies of salt miners in Austria around 1300 B.C.."

Here is a link to some photographs of those mummies:

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm

They spoke a language called Tocharian, which belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. They were Buddhists.

Fascinating stuff, don't you think? Their culture is now extinct, but if they had survived a bit longer, they might have had some influence on the history of Eurasia (especially in technology trading, cultural exchange, etc...). What is your opinion?

 

[Keenir]

In the western province of Xinjiang, archeologists have unearthed the remains of several mummies whose attire and physical appearance were quite unexpected, to say the least.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm

They spoke a language called Tocharian, which belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. They were Buddhists.

Fascinating stuff, don't you think? Their culture is now extinct, but if they had survived a bit longer, they might have had some influence on the history of Eurasia (especially in technology trading, cultural exchange, etc...). What is your opinion?

they did have influence: they created OTL.

now, if only they'd had more influence.....plaid kilt-wearing Chinese Empires like giant dots from the Yellow Sea to the Green Sea?


(the Green Sea is the Med.)

 

[Louis XI]

now, if only they'd had more influence.....plaid kilt-wearing Chinese Empires like giant dots from the Yellow Sea to the Green Sea?

Yeah, funny picture isn't it? You are of course right in mentioning that they created OTL. Very influential people indeed...

I guess their numbers were too few for them to wield much political power in the region, although they did organize themselves in a sort of confederation of tribes at some point.

The Chinese called them "Yuezhi" according to some researchers, which means "moon people" or "meat people". Maybe it indicates something about their original religion (I don't think they were Buddhists from the start), or simply points to the fact that they were pastoralists (not surprising in the region).

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

The Chinese called them "Yuezhi" according to some researchers, which means "moon people" or "meat people". Maybe it indicates something about their original religion (I don't think they were Buddhists from the start), or simply points to the fact that they were pastoralists (not surprising in the region).

Or simply that they originally came from the West.

 

[Louis XI]

Here are some useful links from the wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians

A buddhist monk from the Middle-Ages with red hair and blue eyes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages

The Centum languages are those spoken in western Europe; they are absent from Central Asia, and even from Eastern Europe (satem languages). Sanskrit is also a Satem language.

 

[Faeelin]

The Chinese called them "Yuezhi" according to some researchers, which means "moon people" or "meat people". Maybe it indicates something about their original religion (I don't think they were Buddhists from the start), or simply points to the fact that they were pastoralists (not surprising in the region).

Woah, woah, hold up. It's not clear who the Yuezhi were. Others claim, for instance, they're the Huns, or that some became the Kushans.

 

[Nikephoros]

I think he is talking about the Saka-Scythians.

 

[Louis XI]

Woah, woah, hold up. It's not clear who the Yuezhi were. Others claim, for instance, they're the Huns, or that some became the Kushans.

I think he is talking about the Saka-Scythians.

Absolutely, that is why I took the precaution of mentioning it was the opinion of "some researchers". If indeed the link between the Yuezhi and the Tocharians is questionable , the genetic evidence is irrefutable, and at least establishes the fact that the Tocharians belonged to the Indo-european cultural group. Their language, belonging to the Centum group, is further evidence that supports this assertion.

I don't want to look paranoid or anything, but I find you a little curt and impolite ("whoa, whoa, hold up"...). Perhaps it was not your intention to be unpleasant, but you could have wrapped your answer with some kind of tactful remark, as is usually done between educated and literate people. I am only willing to engage in a civilized debate. Apparently there are a lot of teenagers on this site, and I, too, was a bit rash at this period of my life. I believed I knew everything, and I was eager to assert my big, huge manhood, and show how clever and spiritual I was.

In addition, you can also address me directly if you like, if you want to avoid rudeness and vulgarity ("I think he's talking about the Saka-Scythians").

Although my primary interests are literature and aesthetics, I also have a Master's degree in the history of ideas, which is not pure history of course, but it does allow me to make a few interesting remarks, you know, from time to time. I tend to verify my sources, and when they are likely to be inaccurate, I mention it in my posts ("according to some researchers"). Having read a few books written by clever and knowledgeable people on a variety of subjects (not only history) will help you to understand the world. If you are only interested in repeating facts like a parrot, and compiling data, then there are a lot of jobs for you which will not require you to use your brains, such as working in a public library or dealing with archives and the likes. You will deal with your manhood at this point.

Now, if you are willing to dismiss everything I say because I am new here, or worse, because I am French (Louis XI is quite conspicuous) then please do it, but you will do it without me (I have been called a "French wuss" here: the kind of good, big, refined, xenophobic remarks made by low-brow rednecks...). Now, if you don't like it, kiss my French ass and go fill your big, fat belly with "Freedom Fries".

There are things called hospitality and tolerance...think about it, instead of trying to crush everything that is in your way.

 

[Thande]

I think Stirling had the Tocharians in an important if background role in the world of Conquistador, though knowing him, it probably wasn't realised in a very realistic manner.

 

[Nikephoros]

Now, if you are willing to dismiss everything I say because I am new here, or worse, because I am French (Louis XI is quite conspicuous)

I was defending you for one. Two, I didn't pay attention to your name.

 

[arctic warrior]

Quite an interesting subject. I've heard of the mummies first and the got my hands on the book by William Ryan and Walter Pitman - theory of the Black Sea flooding being the basis for the Middle East stories of the great flood.

What really caught my interest about the mummies was the woman with red hair and a "sorcerers" tall pointed hat. Images of pre-christian priest like the Etruscan Haruspex and later Medieval images of hats that Jews were ordered to wear as well as the Disney image of a which and Gandalf spring to mind.
Looks like some early agreement on how a pre-monotheistic religion priest ought to look was quite widespread.

The Pitman Ryan book devote some time to the Tarim Basin as well as the Tocharians. Apparently the post-glacial lake formed in the Tarim Basin was the basis for their civilization and the drying out of the lake in Medieval time was their death sentence. (Apparently Marco Polo saw or heard of the lake during his travel)

Seems like the Tocharians should have gone on exodus quite early to find a more friendly home somewhere in Central Asia. That way they might have had a more profound impact on Central Asia.
That way their priest hood might have survived and the "sorcerers" hat might have looked different!

 

[Louis XI]

I was defending you for one. Two, I didn't pay attention to your name.

My deepest and humblest apologies, Nikephoros.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I think he is talking about the Saka-Scythians.

Nope, the Scythians come from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family and the Tocharians are a seperate branch.

 

[Louis XI]

Quite an interesting subject. I've heard of the mummies first and the got my hands on the book by William Ryan and Walter Pitman - theory of the Black Sea flooding being the basis for the Middle East stories of the great flood.

What really caught my interest about the mummies was the woman with red hair and a "sorcerers" tall pointed hat. Images of pre-christian priest like the Etruscan Haruspex and later Medieval images of hats that Jews were ordered to wear as well as the Disney image of a which and Gandalf spring to mind.
Looks like some early agreement on how a pre-monotheistic religion priest ought to look was quite widespread.

The Pitman Ryan book devote some time to the Tarim Basin as well as the Tocharians. Apparently the post-glacial lake formed in the Tarim Basin was the basis for their civilization and the drying out of the lake in Medieval time was their death sentence. (Apparently Marco Polo saw or heard of the lake during his travel)

Seems like the Tocharians should have gone on exodus quite early to find a more friendly home somewhere in Central Asia. That way they might have had a more profound impact on Central Asia.
That way their priest hood might have survived and the "sorcerers" hat might have looked different!

According to the following link, the (few?) survivors of the Tocharian culture migrated into regions such as Afghanistan and Pakistan.

http://www.indopedia.org/Tocharians.html

I also recall having seen an interesting documentary on TV about the Uighurs. One of them looked fairly European-although most Uighurs looked much like the other inhabitants of the region.

What drew my attention about the whole story is some genetic data I have collected about myself through the Genographic project (National Geographic). According to the results, my genetic signature was the most common in western Europe, but when I searched for matches, I found that some of them concerned the Uighurs (I believe it was on Y-search.org):these were exact matches on 12 genetic markers on the Y-chromosome.

About your remarks concerning religion, I believe that in the region around the salt mines in Austria (Halstatt), they found some of the hats you mentioned. Maybe Tocharians share some sort of common background with the Halstatt and La Tene Celts.
According to linguists, Tocharian is closer to Celtic languages than Slavic languages.

I have always found polytheistic religions more appealing (although I am not a very religious person myself). I guess it has something to do with the mythical and poetic aspects of those...

 

[Louis XI]

Oooops, I forgot. The traditional dress of Uighur women includes a tall, pointed hat. It was impressive to watch on TV!

 

[arctic warrior]

About your remarks concerning religion, I believe that in the region around the salt mines in Austria (Halstatt), they found some of the hats you mentioned. Maybe Tocharians share some sort of common background with the Halstatt and La Tene Celts.
According to linguists, Tocharian is closer to Celtic languages than Slavic languages.

My personal opinion is, based on the fact that the these hats were to be used during Medieval times by peoples not of the Catholic church and thus seen as representing something foreign or to be abhorred, that the hat of the sorcerer/haruspex is indeed the head gear of early religious priests and as you point to the religion or the symbol were spread widely in the indo-european language area.
Religions that was suppressed by the Catholic church and thus their symbol the tall hat was to be worn by peoples not of the true faith.
This also caught on for sorcerers and witches at some time hence our illustations of these, even if I have been unable to find any illustrations of this dating to Medieval times.

 

[arctic warrior]

But I'm aware that women of the Medieval times did wear tall pointy hats with a veil attached at times - so I could be off the track.

 

[Louis XI]

My personal opinion is, based on the fact that the these hats were to be used during Medieval times by peoples not of the Catholic church and thus seen as representing something foreign or to be abhorred, that the hat of the sorcerer/haruspex is indeed the head gear of early religious priests and as you point to the religion or the symbol were spread widely in the indo-european language area.
Religions that was suppressed by the Catholic church and thus their symbol the tall hat was to be worn by peoples not of the true faith.

You might well be right. This would mean that Indo-Europeans had a very structured society even before the split between European languages (that is, at least after the split between the Eastern and Western branches).
According to Roman commentators, the religion of the Celts was quite elaborate and advanced. As far as knowledge and philosophy are concerned, the Druids were referred to as "Pythagoricians".

In this connection, one of the earliest representations of the heavens (perhaps the oldest on Earth) was found somewhere in northern Germany (it was a kind of disc made of bronze). Their religion had a lot to do with celestial bodies and the observation of the sky (which is in keeping with monuments like Stonehenge and the megalithic culture), apparently.

Here are some additional links about the Uighurs:

http://www.indopedia.org/Tocharians.html

http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Brazil-to-Congo-Republic-of/Uighurs.html

http://redlinkimages.com/search/search_result.php?action=result&search=advance&search_keyword=uygur

 

[arctic warrior]

You might well be right. This would mean that Indo-Europeans had a very structured society even before the split between European languages (that is, at least after the split between the Eastern and Western branches).
According to Roman commentators, the religion of the Celts was quite elaborate and advanced.

It could well mean so, at least a founded religious "society". BTW a woman wearing a tall pointed hat, perhaps being a priest would no be uncommon. In Germanic Denmark women could attain religious importance, getting buried with their items of the trade.

As far as knowledge and philosophy are concerned, the Druids were referred to as "Pythagoricians".

Probably in need of a better description.

In this connection, one of the earliest representations of the heavens (perhaps the oldest on Earth) was found somewhere in northern Germany (it was a kind of disc made of bronze). Their religion had a lot to do with celestial bodies and the observation of the sky (which is in keeping with monuments like Stonehenge and the megalithic culture), apparently.

Which would be in the tradition of an agrarian society, that would also be the basis for established religion of sorts.

 

[Louis XI]

Probably in need of a better description.

I am afraid so...

Here is what I found. The following is based on the writings of several ancient authors:

First of all, Diodorus Siculus reported that the Druids were "philosophers and theologians", "skilled in the divine nature", and able to communicate with the gods.

Julius Caesar, who knew the Gauls well, and cannot be accused of being prejudiced in their favour, wrote that they had philosophical and religious beliefs pertaining to "the powers and spheres of action of the immortal gods"; that they had "much knowledge of the stars and their motion, of the size of the world and of the earth, of natural philosophy".
Strabo and Cicero said that the Celts had knowledge of nature which the Greeks called physiologia.

Other ancient writers linked the Druids with the Pythagoreans (sorry, "Pythagoricians" in my previous post...). Diodorus, Amminus and Valerius Maximus associated the Druidic belief in immortality with the theory of metempsychosis, making Druids "members of the intimate fellowship of the Pythagorean faith".

Some went farther and derived the Pythagorean school of philosophy from the Druids. Iamblichus, for example, maintained that Pythagoras was acquainted with the Celtic mysteries, a statement confirmed by Clement of Alexandria,who in about 200 AD wrote that philosophy had been studied by the Druids before the Greeks.

-"Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light among the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians, and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians, and the Druids among the Gauls, and the philosophers among the Celts."

As a consequence, there is reason to believe that the people in western and northern Europe were quite advanced in several scientific fields, as is also demonstrated by the exceptional agricultural yields of Celtic Britain (equal to those of the nineteenth-century).