Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[MattII]

Or you could use bullocks & oxen. For example, this team in Thailand:
View attachment 772540 Forest colonization in Thailand.
Or this one in Queensland, Australia:
View attachment 772541

That would work too, if you could get enough of them.

Sir, your statement that using humans to move the stranded tank, ‘wouldn’t work’, is based on what, personally experience, an in depth analysis of the situation? I however am basing my statement on personal experience, not of moving a tank by human power, but rather a BAC Concorde twice, and a Boeing B747 200 once. Some years ago it was my privilege to captain the team of British Airways staff that took part in two charity events where pulling a Concorde 100 yards the quickest was the aim. Year one we came second, then in year two we were the winners. Subsequently it was decided to take part in a televised event in an attempt to raise money for various charities and gain a Guinness World record. I was both a technical consultant on the project, and Captain of the team, and lead the numerous training sessions we had. In the end live on a British National TV Network, we succeeded in pulling a B747 200, 100 meters in world record time, using 100 people of both sex’s. The all up weight of the aircraft on the day was 205 tons, so getting 100 people to move a 25 ton tank would not be impossible, especially with people who are used to hard physical labour, and not the mix of majority office workers I had to work with.

Getting 100 people organised on a muddy jungle track? And aren't a lot of the bridges out? Maybe it would be possible under ideal conditions, but the Japanese are already in a death-spiral, so I'm still calling a failure.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I am going to weigh in and suggest that the Japanese Army is more than capable of recovering any captured Matilda II tanks, eventually, however I would suggest that with the staggering logistical issues that 25th Army faces and is going to face, it is a job for he future 'once victory has been achieved'

So hopefully ITTL it will not come to pass

 

[MattII]

I am going to weigh in and suggest that the Japanese Army is more than capable of recovering any captured Matilda II tanks, eventually, however I would suggest that with the staggering logistical issues that 25th Army faces and is going to face, it is a job for he future 'once victory has been achieved'

So hopefully ITTL it will not come to pass

Yep. There can be a big difference between 'this is theoretically possible' and 'this is practicably achievable'. Recovering the tank is definitely the former.

 

[Schlock]

Apart from the fact that the British have demolished multiple bridges in their retreat to where the Matilda was abandoned, I'd say recovery is definitely going to be on the backburner, especially since the Japanese leadership still think that they're winning at the moment. Why bother with a disabled tank when you can just examine a captured tank in better condition after Singapore surrenders?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Still largely fighting to spoil and delay the Japanese attacks. It's interesting but eminently sensible to see the British tankers already recognize that they need very limited numbers of AT ammo, but plenty of anti-infantry ammunition in this theatre.

I can see this driving the need for a 2 pounder HE round possibly even a locally sourced one?

 

[vizzer]

At the moment the Japanese are probably more thinking how can we shift this thing out of the way to get our trucks passed rather than how can we recover it.
While infantry won't have a problem passing the stranded Matilda anything much larger is going to be blocked until it is shoved aside.

 

[MattII]

Given the short distance you'd have to move it, I don't think it would take more than a couple of hours, and maybe a lot less.

 

[duckie]

Given the short distance you'd have to move it, I don't think it would take more than a couple of hours, and maybe a lot less.

given the road and surface conditions (wet, muddy etc), would the Matilda not sink further in the mud, making recovery more difficult

 

[vizzer]

Given the short distance you'd have to move it, I don't think it would take more than a couple of hours, and maybe a lot less.

Agree it wouldn't take long to just shove it off the road provided there is something able to move it - maybe even enough men with logs to lever it aside. But probably not taking care to make its later recovery simpler.

 

[Orry]

At the moment the Japanese are probably more thinking how can we shift this thing out of the way to get our trucks passed rather than how can we recover it.
While infantry won't have a problem passing the stranded Matilda anything much larger is going to be blocked until it is shoved aside.

tank crew: we have lost aa track - can only go in circles
Officer: Fine go in circle to fully block the raod (takes 10 seconds)
Officer: right - unload what we can - drin the oil and rig the engine to wreak itself....

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

tank crew: we have lost aa track - can only go in circles
Officer: Fine go in circle to fully block the raod (takes 10 seconds)
Officer: right - unload what we can - drin the oil and rig the engine to wreak itself....

and empty that jerry can into the turret before dropping in a match.

 

[marathag]

Officer: right - unload what we can - drin the oil and rig the engine to wreak itself....

If was Liberty Engine powered, it would do that anyway

 

[pjmidd]

If was Liberty Engine powered, it would do that anyway

2 diesel engines its not a Nuffield design.

 

[Wyboy26]

Logistics

what was the logistic train like for the Japanese in the invasion of Malaya? With all those bridges blown how will it effect it? The standard ammunition carry of light infantry will not last long without regular re-supply.

 

[Draconis]

and empty that jerry can into the turret before dropping in a match.

That's what I was going to post. The fastest to way to wreck it. Fire will destroy the wiring harness, instruments and and the radios. Maybe leave a few of the 40mm rounds to cook off too.

 

[Draconis]

tank crew: we have lost aa track - can only go in circles
Officer: Fine go in circle to fully block the raod (takes 10 seconds)
Officer: right - unload what we can - drin the oil and rig the engine to wreak itself....

How difficult and how long to drain the oil? Might be better to break or cut the radiator piping and jam the throttle up with the transmission in neutral. Then add a jerrycan of gas to the turret as suggested by Peg Leg Pom.

Anyway it's handled and I'm proud to be posting commentary in the company of such a fine ensemble of Vandals.

 

[Donald Reaver]

"However, in doing so, the tank had thrown a track. As the last carrier passed, Hickson and his crew jumped on board, having tried to destroy the tank as much as they could."

It does not sound like they had time to remove ammunition from the tank, should brew up nicely.

 

[wally]

While it interesting all the discussion about how to move the tank, the point I was trying to make is this will have an impact on their tank development. As it's a year eariler than OTL when they first faced this type. Currently they already lost confirmed 10 tanks and unconfirmed more to just 3 of them and the Japanese did not have many to begin with. They will be looking at the wreck even if its just to guess the armour and shot different guns against it. In OTL the increase of M4s lead to the rush on Type 3 Medium Tank Chi-Nu.

I can also see more Matilda being sent to SE Asia as they replaced in Europe and demend increases for them for jungle warfare.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Anyway it's handled and I'm proud to be posting commentary in the company of such a fine ensemble of Vandals.

It's not vandalism, it's denying the enemy the use of the facilities. (Said the private as he machinegunned the railway station's W.C.)

 

[Ramp-Rat]

On the attempt by its crew to destroy the broken down Matilda tank. Given time, which I do not believe they had, the Japanese could be left with a smoking shell. However ITTL, the crew were not given time, to undertake the task. I question however if the vehicle would have been given Jerrycans, which are a very new introduction to British forces, as apposed to the standard 2 gallon flimsy. And why given that the Matilda was equipped with a Diesel engine, puncturing a fuel can of the tank, as apposed to one from the carrier that was rescuing the crew, would be effective. Diesel is notoriously inflammable, being very difficult to set alight, if you want to touch the tank, far better to use a can of petrol off the carrier.

RR.