With a PoD after the Congress of Vienna, make Albania (either part or all of it) part of Italian unification. I'm not too well versed in this section of history, but I do know there were Venetian colonies along the coast, as well as a sizeable exile population in the Mezzogiorno.
AHC: Albania included in Italian unification
- Thread starter Texas Bulldog
- Start date
Albania in 1815 was an integral part of the Ottoman Empire, and had been for nearly three centuries and half, more in many places. For about as long, no significant or lasting holding of any Italian state existed there, the closest thing to that I know of being Antivari and Dulcigno, two Venetian-held towns on the coast of modern Montenegro. They were actually known as "Venetian Albania". The area was minuscule, peripheral, and mostly Slavic.
In what is now Albania, the diverse local dialects of the Gheg and Tosk forms of Albanian were mostly spoken, alongside Greek, Serbo-Croatian, etc. Venetian and Italian were probably known by some in coastal centers, to a varying extent. That's it.
Most Albanians were Muslims. A lot of the remainder were Greek Orthodox and would have had hard time to indentify with a majority Catholic state.
Albanians got along relatively well with Italy after they felt the Ottomans failed them, which happened mostly after 1908. 'Relatively' doing a lot of work here, as Albanians looked sometimes to Italy as a protector against Serbs or Greeks, but Italy was still a colonizing invader to them. Italy had at times reason to seek Albanians as _very junior_ partners.
But again, this is entirely contextual and relative.
Italy would have to _conquer_ Albania (as was tried, late).
In what is now Albania, the diverse local dialects of the Gheg and Tosk forms of Albanian were mostly spoken, alongside Greek, Serbo-Croatian, etc. Venetian and Italian were probably known by some in coastal centers, to a varying extent. That's it.
Most Albanians were Muslims. A lot of the remainder were Greek Orthodox and would have had hard time to indentify with a majority Catholic state.
Albanians got along relatively well with Italy after they felt the Ottomans failed them, which happened mostly after 1908. 'Relatively' doing a lot of work here, as Albanians looked sometimes to Italy as a protector against Serbs or Greeks, but Italy was still a colonizing invader to them. Italy had at times reason to seek Albanians as _very junior_ partners.
But again, this is entirely contextual and relative.
Italy would have to _conquer_ Albania (as was tried, late).
Last edited:
Maybe Vlore and the surrounding region since it was claimed IOTL by the Italians post WW1. However the whole thing seems unlikely.
I can very maybe see it with such an incredible number of perfect rolls that I'm going to call 'no, technical ASB' on this, with Falecius' reasons as the main whys.
for the most part I agree with you, I would just like to add two details, the first concerns the Italian ties with Epirus / Albania ( which alternated between Normans and subsequently Naples and the Serenissima, in particular for the control of Durazzo and Scutari which were the places most highly influenced from Italy in the region, if we exclude Dalmatia and Latin Greece, Corfu first and foremost ) but the Ottoman conquests swept away this connection completely ( with Scutari falling into Ottoman hands in 1478 ), so it would be necessary for the region to be maintained by a strong Italian kingdom over the centuries, and which encouraged the settlement of speakers of Romance languages in the area ( such as Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian, or their sub-derivatives such as the Vlaso dialect ) and to support the Catholic Church or one of its local branching, for the rest it would be really difficult if not impossible to encourage a feeling of national belonging among the Italians in that area without that
Last edited:
As Mother Theresa demonstrates, Catholicism has a long historical presence amongst Albanians as well. Accordingly, the idea of merging into a Catholic majority state (preferably as an autonomous member) would not be a completely alien concept.
Albania's Orthodox population was often Greek Orthodox by coercion, not by choice. Greek prelates forbade services in Albanian and sanctioned Greek nationalists were known to murder Albanian priests who in any way supported the formation of an Albanian Orthodox church. Simply using Albanian in the liturgy could be seen as supportive of an Albanian Orthodox church.
Against this background, the deftly diplomatic Italians roll out the.....
- Albanian Eastern rite Catholic church. It already exists to a degree on mainland Italy. Yes, Albanian speaking priests are on the way and Albanian will be freely used in religious services. Albanians joining this club receive full religious autonomy and equally important- protection from Greek coercion or worse.
Last edited:
I agree with this but just for clarity will mention that the Venetian Ionian Islands had four mainland dependencies, in addition to the possessions already mentioned in the Cattaro / Kotor area. One of these, Butrinto / Butrint is located in the area of modern Albania and the others in the Greek / Albanian borderland of Epirus. They all fell into Ottoman hands, or the hands of local potentates like Ali Pasha of Ioannina after 1797 and the British never bothered to try to claim them after making the Ionians a dependency in 1815. One in particular, Parga, was a bit of a cause celebre at the start of the British period because of depradations on the local Christians, but nothing much came of the affair.
Albanian Catholics exist, and existed, but they are a minority. "Greek Orthodox" refers to rite, not ethnicity (but you are right on the broader point).
Last edited:
Grey Wolf
Donor
Really, you are going to have to collapse the Ottoman Empire in the first half of the 19th century, as I can't see this working otherwise. The Napoleonic wars had swept away most of the Venetian colonies on the East coast of the Adriatic, and what was left would be no more than tiny enclaves if included in a unified Italy, even if you somehow managed to include Ragusa, which would be just a somewhat bigger enclave.
If the Ottoman Empire collapses, then many areas would try to break away under local rulers, mostly alien to their people, or native to only a percentage of their people. In that scenario one see someone involve themselves in Albania - but to included IN unification, that means a pre-unification state would have to launch the claim. I don't think the Two Sicilies had much power projection, even though they have the best historical claim. Venice is part of the Habsburg empire, so unless you have a weird unification scenario where Lombardy-Venetia acting under, say Maximilian, involves itself in Albania, and goes on to unify Italy under itself, then I cannot see any Venetian legacy stuff working. The Papal States also don't have much power projection and what is their claim - that the Pope wants Albania? Sardinia is the only country with power projection but is the one with the least claim to Albania.
Maybe you could get some sort of pan-Italian league, where Sicily's claim to Albania is backed by Sardinian arms, and that this then BECOMES the vehicle for unification?
If the Ottoman Empire collapses, then many areas would try to break away under local rulers, mostly alien to their people, or native to only a percentage of their people. In that scenario one see someone involve themselves in Albania - but to included IN unification, that means a pre-unification state would have to launch the claim. I don't think the Two Sicilies had much power projection, even though they have the best historical claim. Venice is part of the Habsburg empire, so unless you have a weird unification scenario where Lombardy-Venetia acting under, say Maximilian, involves itself in Albania, and goes on to unify Italy under itself, then I cannot see any Venetian legacy stuff working. The Papal States also don't have much power projection and what is their claim - that the Pope wants Albania? Sardinia is the only country with power projection but is the one with the least claim to Albania.
Maybe you could get some sort of pan-Italian league, where Sicily's claim to Albania is backed by Sardinian arms, and that this then BECOMES the vehicle for unification?
I agree that preserving Albania Veneta seems like a place to start if not a prerequisite. Either the Venetians hold Dulcigno and Scutari or maybe they reconquer them during the Great Turkish War. But even then I'm sure that its a straightforward path to including it in a new Italian state. IOTL Venetian Dalmatia was held by Austria after Italian Unification so it still seems like a stretch that the Italians could take territory on the other side of the Adriatic under a similar Risorgimento scenario.
Maybe if Albania Veneta somehow doesn't fall to Austria with the rest of the Balkan territories of the Stato da Mar. Maybe the Brits take Albania Veneta along with the Ionian Islands to use as a naval base or to break the continental system and the later on give it to Italy when the Ionian Islands are handed over to Greece? I'm not sure what the motivation would be to let Italy have it as it would just upset Austria without really gaining anything for the British.
Or maybe Albania Veneta is handed over to the Two Sicilies in 1815 based upon old Angevin claims of the Kingdom of Naples to the Duchy of Durazzo/Kingdom of Albania? But that seems like more of a stretch than the British taking it and handing it over to Italy later on.
Maybe if Albania Veneta somehow doesn't fall to Austria with the rest of the Balkan territories of the Stato da Mar. Maybe the Brits take Albania Veneta along with the Ionian Islands to use as a naval base or to break the continental system and the later on give it to Italy when the Ionian Islands are handed over to Greece? I'm not sure what the motivation would be to let Italy have it as it would just upset Austria without really gaining anything for the British.
Or maybe Albania Veneta is handed over to the Two Sicilies in 1815 based upon old Angevin claims of the Kingdom of Naples to the Duchy of Durazzo/Kingdom of Albania? But that seems like more of a stretch than the British taking it and handing it over to Italy later on.