AHC: Emperor of Italy from House Habsburg

[vn6]

With a POD post-1815 create an Italian Empire with ruler from House Habsburg-Lorraine who ALSO is an Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary.

The Empire might be federation of states and must contain at least northern part of the Italian Peninsula.

Is that possible in any circumatances? Like e.g. Austria giving Prussia free hand in Germany and focusing on Italy while being allied with Prussia and Russia.

What do you think?

 

[AkhenatenOrRamses]

I don't think you can get an Austrian Emperor of Italy ruling from Vienna (Italian nationalists will never accept that), but you could probably get Leopold II of Tuscany as King of Italy in 1848 if you give him a spine and have him side with the revolutionaries. Historically he was more of an enlightened monarch than despot, but the 1848 revolutions freaked him out and he turned to Vienna for help, earning the wrath of those he once enjoyed respect from.

 

[Dragonboy]

I don't think you can get an Austrian Emperor of Italy ruling from Vienna (Italian nationalists will never accept that), but you could probably get Leopold II of Tuscany as King of Italy in 1848 if you give him a spine and have him side with the revolutionaries. Historically he was more of an enlightened monarch than despot, but the 1848 revolutions freaked him out and he turned to Vienna for help, earning the wrath of those he once enjoyed respect from.

THIS!

 

[vn6]

I don't think you can get an Austrian Emperor of Italy ruling from Vienna (Italian nationalists will never accept that), but you could probably get Leopold II of Tuscany as King of Italy in 1848 if you give him a spine and have him side with the revolutionaries. Historically he was more of an enlightened monarch than despot, but the 1848 revolutions freaked him out and he turned to Vienna for help, earning the wrath of those he once enjoyed respect from.

Some nationalists might not accept it, some might accept it. After all, Hungarian nationalists accepted being ruled from Vienna.

As fantastic as my scenario seems, I don't think the one with Leopold is more plausible. He would have no option to challenge Austrian military might without outside help.

 

[Nuraghe]

I don't think you can get an Austrian Emperor of Italy ruling from Vienna (Italian nationalists will never accept that), but you could probably get Leopold II of Tuscany as King of Italy in 1848 if you give him a spine and have him side with the revolutionaries. Historically he was more of an enlightened monarch than despot, but the 1848 revolutions freaked him out and he turned to Vienna for help, earning the wrath of those he once enjoyed respect from.

in reality the real collapse of the Habsburg power in Italy was due to the poorly managed power vacuum between the transition of the government of Francis I and Ferdinand I, where the former, having been born and raised in the region, was respected/tolerated by the local population, but with his successor things quickly fell apart also because Metternich was able to quickly gain greater decision-making power and implement new, even more repressive policies, which further alienated the Italians

 

[vn6]

in reality the real collapse of the Habsburg power in Italy was due to the poorly managed power vacuum between the transition of the government of Francis I and Ferdinand I, where the former, having been born and raised in the region, was respected/tolerated by the local population, but with his successor things quickly fell apart also because Metternich was able to quickly gain greater decision-making power and implement new, even more repressive policies, which further alienated the Italians

That's interesting to hear as I've always thought that Metternich was less reactionary than Francis. I mean he had some interesting reform proposals that rather weren't reactionary (though obviously not democratic either).

 

[Evil Crusader]

I would go back to post-1800, honestly, but only for personal developments. By 1815 there has to happen something super bad like the Hungarians suiciding to convince Francis to focus on ostensibly more friendly Italian holdings, because otherwise the idea of focusing on Hungary has been already taken.

 

[Lalli]

I don't think that it is possible. Perhaps there is way how Austria can keep Venicce-Lombardy and give them same status as for Hungary but even that seems bit unlikely.

You could anyway get Kingdom of Italy under Habsburg if Tuscany manage to unite Italy. Italians never would accept their nation being ruled from Vienna. Not too sure if even Austrians wanted control of whole Italy.

 

[vn6]

I don't think that it is possible. Perhaps there is way how Austria can keep Venicce-Lombardy and give them same status as for Hungary but even that seems bit unlikely.

You could anyway get Kingdom of Italy under Habsburg if Tuscany manage to unite Italy. Italians never would accept their nation being ruled from Vienna. Not too sure if even Austrians wanted control of whole Italy.

Why Italians would never accept that? Hungarians accepted OTL.

If Habsburg Empire contains all of Italy (as a federation) then why wouldn't they?

 

[Evil Crusader]

Why Italians would never accept that? Hungarians accepted OTL.

If Habsburg Empire contains all of Italy (as a federation) then why wouldn't they?

Habsburg control of Hungary was, by 1800, a positively ancient arrangement; enough that they were unquestionably legitimate and the Hungarian Revolution only started when the Emperor tried to curtail the privileges of the Hungarian half of his domains. By contrast, the Habsburgs would be going back to serious pretenses over Italy - a nation that has always had problems with powerful central authorities - since a much longer time. It could be done, but requires a long-term project and even some luck.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Impossible, there just would be way too much persons opposing this and it isn't even in Austria's interests to do this since it would divert resources in the Italian peninsula when their main priorities are elsewhere, the only thing they cared about was Lombardy-Venice but they didn't have much interests in say the Kingdom of Two Sicilies and also how do you manage to integrate the Papal territories?

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Whatever the desires of the House of Austria the Russians, French, Prussians and probably the British would object. You might ge some minor princeling appointed then emasculated by the forces of Italian Liberty ( France and Britain).

 

[vn6]

Habsburg control of Hungary was, by 1800, a positively ancient arrangement; enough that they were unquestionably legitimate and the Hungarian Revolution only started when the Emperor tried to curtail the privileges of the Hungarian half of his domains. By contrast, the Habsburgs would be going back to serious pretenses over Italy - a nation that has always had problems with powerful central authorities - since a much longer time. It could be done, but requires a long-term project and even some luck.

Italy always had problems with central authorities? It survived a long while under the House of Savoy, why can't it survive under House of Habsburg?

 

[vn6]

Impossible, there just would be way too much persons opposing this and it isn't even in Austria's interests to do this since it would divert resources in the Italian peninsula when their main priorities are elsewhere, the only thing they cared about was Lombardy-Venice but they didn't have much interests in say the Kingdom of Two Sicilies and also how do you manage to integrate the Papal territories?

Prussia might be bought by giving it free hand in Germany. France no doubt will object but if Austria and Prussia ally it will have to back down. Russia might object too but don't know about Britain.

Apart from that, it would be loose confederation, much looser than OTL German Empire.

As for Papal territories, Pope would become honorable patron of the Confederation and would crown Emperor of Italy in Rome. Other idea: the Confederation only contains Italy north of Papal States and it is in alliance with it and Two Sicilies.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Prussia might be bought by giving it free hand in Germany.

There is no way they do that, Austria is more interested in Germany than it is in Italy. Giving Prussia a free hand would mean losing Germany which is not in Vienna's interests.

France no doubt will object but if Austria and Prussia ally it will have to back down. Russia might object too but don't know about Britain.

Giving the Austrians all of Italy would be objected by everyone especially if it is in a personal union with the rest of the Austrian Empire, it would make Austria too strong in the eyes of the other GP.

Apart from that, it would be loose confederation, much looser than OTL German Empire.

The German Empire wasn't a loose confederation, it was a federal state. And the Austrian Empire was a series of personal unions which while not as good as one centralized state was far from being weak.

Other idea: the Confederation only contains Italy north of Papal States and it is in alliance with it and Two Sicilies.

First you have the problem that you have to find a way to get rid of Piedmont-Sardinia, an independent state which Britain and France have interests in maintaining and Prussia and Russia would oppose such Austrian expansion.
Second you have to find a way to convince the Bourbon dynasty in the Two Sicilies to ally themselves with Habsburgs, the best way to get them in your sphere would be to put a Habsburg on the throne but seeing they failed to replace the Bourbons IOTL at the Congress of Vienna, I doubt they will ITTL. And just to add on the fun IIRC Two Sicilies had good relations with Britain.
Third you have the opposition of everyone both in Italy and outside, Italians basically hate the Habsburgs and many rulers in Italy would oppose such an idea including the Pope who would be worried about becoming an Austrian puppet (just as the rest of Italian rulers) and all GP would oppose such an idea.
Fourthly you have to imagine the massive burden it would be for Austria to have so much Italians in their territory who are only waiting for someone to come and help them gain independence and Austria has many other problems outside the Italians, already IOTL the Austrians were over-stretched between Italy and the Hungarians rebelling and had to ask the Russians for help, thankfully for them Germany didn't do anything in the meantime.

 

[vn6]

There is no way they do that, Austria is more interested in Germany than it is in Italy. Giving Prussia a free hand would mean losing Germany which is not in Vienna's interests.

Giving the Austrians all of Italy would be objected by everyone especially if it is in a personal union with the rest of the Austrian Empire, it would make Austria too strong in the eyes of the other GP.

The German Empire wasn't a loose confederation, it was a federal state. And the Austrian Empire was a series of personal unions which while not as good as one centralized state was far from being weak.

First you have the problem that you have to find a way to get rid of Piedmont-Sardinia, an independent state which Britain and France have interests in maintaining and Prussia and Russia would oppose such Austrian expansion.
Second you have to find a way to convince the Bourbon dynasty in the Two Sicilies to ally themselves with Habsburgs, the best way to get them in your sphere would be to put a Habsburg on the throne but seeing they failed to replace the Bourbons IOTL at the Congress of Vienna, I doubt they will ITTL. And just to add on the fun IIRC Two Sicilies had good relations with Britain.
Third you have the opposition of everyone both in Italy and outside, Italians basically hate the Habsburgs and many rulers in Italy would oppose such an idea including the Pope who would be worried about becoming an Austrian puppet (just as the rest of Italian rulers) and all GP would oppose such an idea.
Fourthly you have to imagine the massive burden it would be for Austria to have so much Italians in their territory who are only waiting for someone to come and help them gain independence and Austria has many other problems outside the Italians, already IOTL the Austrians were over-stretched between Italy and the Hungarians rebelling and had to ask the Russians for help, thankfully for them Germany didn't do anything in the meantime.

I know that OTL Austria was more interested in Germany but I'm talking about change in priorities . Austrians decide that with Prussia unification of Germany is impossible and start looking south. After Congress of Vienna Italy had comparable GDP to Germany (minus Austria) so getting domination there wouldn't be worse than in Germany.

I know about all these problems and I do realize it's not very probable. However I think Prussia and Russia can be convinced by giving them free hand in their areas of influence (Germany and Balkans). Not only Austria would get stronger but all 3 of them.

As for Italians hating Habsburgs, they hated them because Habsburgs were obstacle to Italian unification. If there is united Italy, would they still hate them?

 

[Evil Crusader]

Italy always had problems with central authorities? It survived a long while under the House of Savoy, why can't it survive under House of Habsburg?

That's because they conquered the nation while being natives themselves, it's much easier to be appreciated when you're not making your citizens second-class.

 

[vn6]

That's because they conquered the nation while being natives themselves, it's much easier to be appreciated when you're not making your citizens second-class.

What do you mean that they were second class citizens? I only know Italians weren't allowed high posts in the government. Is it something else too?

Could different policy towards the Italians in Habsburg empire lead to them liking Austrian dynasty more?

 

[Evil Crusader]

What do you mean that they were second class citizens? I only know Italians weren't allowed high posts in the government. Is it something else too?

Could different policy towards the Italians in Habsburg empire lead to them liking Austrian dynasty more?

Yes, that's the difference between the Hungarian and italian kingdoms OTL.

 

[vn6]

Yes, that's the difference between the Hungarian and italian kingdoms OTL.

It is very weird that Habsburgs didn't consider to treat them better. Could have saved themselves very rich province.