English Canada/French Carolina: A Timeline
- Thread starter Gabingston
- Start date
So, what do you think I should talk about next? I'm struggling to come up with ideas, and with the ideas I do have (East Asian War, Indian Decolonization), I'm struggling to think of how to develop said ideas into my work.
I don't know if there will be a third global war ITTL. With that said, the British and French can't hold on to India forever, it's simply too populated. I expect Indian independence within the next few decades from where we are in the timeline (1930s).
My next update is going to be on Oceania, and I'm wondering at what point New Holland (the Dutch colony) and Terre-Bourbon (the French colony) will gain independence. The Australian arc of the TL is currently at 1930, and the population of both colonies is nearing a million, so it should be coming sometime soon.
On a related note, since France is still a monarchy ITTL, I'm wondering what form of government or what royal house will rule Terre-Bourbon? France is under the mainline Bourbons, so it could be handed off to a younger brother of the French king to form a cadet branch, or it could possibly be handed off to the House of Orleans, who would become the ruling dynasty of France if the main Bourbons died off. Perhaps the Bourbons would elect not to form a separate branch, but rather have some sort of relationship to France similar to that of the British Dominions, where the French monarch is also the monarch of Terre-Bourbon? Or maybe it won't be a monarchy at all, but elect to become a Republic upon independence (thus making me find a new name for the country, as it's unlikely that a Republic would keep their former monarchy's name). As for New Holland, The Netherlands are a republic, so New Holland would become a republic as well. Share your thoughts if you want to.
On a related note, since France is still a monarchy ITTL, I'm wondering what form of government or what royal house will rule Terre-Bourbon? France is under the mainline Bourbons, so it could be handed off to a younger brother of the French king to form a cadet branch, or it could possibly be handed off to the House of Orleans, who would become the ruling dynasty of France if the main Bourbons died off. Perhaps the Bourbons would elect not to form a separate branch, but rather have some sort of relationship to France similar to that of the British Dominions, where the French monarch is also the monarch of Terre-Bourbon? Or maybe it won't be a monarchy at all, but elect to become a Republic upon independence (thus making me find a new name for the country, as it's unlikely that a Republic would keep their former monarchy's name). As for New Holland, The Netherlands are a republic, so New Holland would become a republic as well. Share your thoughts if you want to.
Last edited:
I figure independence should be sooner than later. And doesn't the Netherlands have a monarchy?
Not in this timeline, there was a civil war between Republicans and Monarchists that the Republicans won.
A poll on what should be the head of state of Terre-Bourbon?
strawpoll.com
What should be the head of state of Terre-Bourbon? - Online Poll - StrawPoll
What's your opinion? Vote now: King of France, Cadet Branch of the Bourbons, Another French Noble House, Republic (Terre-Bourbon would need a new name in this case)...
strawpoll.com
Part 117: Men At Work
Part 117: Men At Work
After a sizable absence, it is time for me to return to Terra Australis, The Southern Land. A vast, mostly desolate land that gave plenty of opportunities for those ambitious enough to make the voyage to the other end of the world. By the 1930s and 1940s, millions of Europeans had made said voyage, and in the span of a century and a half the continent had been completely remade, for better or worse.I’ll begin in the east, with the British colony turned dominion of Australia. Easily the most populous and important of the continent’s countries, Australia was the nexus of the continent, with more people than the rest of the continent combined. By 1950, the population of Australia had grown to 7.05 Million, far behind the Commonwealth of America but still far bigger than anyone else on the continent. Port Jackson and Melbourne were still the two largest cities on the continent, and other cities like the capital Albury and the coastal cities of Newcastle and Brisbane were among the ten largest on the continent.
Traveling across the Murray River, we’ve got the French colony of Terre-Bourbon. Between 1930 and 1950, the population of Terre Bourbon officially passed the one million milestone, growing from 845,000 in 1930 to 1,165,000 in 1950. After the reacquisition of Terre-Bourbon in 1924, the French government created the États généraux de Terre-Bourbon as a form of local self-governance for the Bourbonese in matters directly relating to the colony, sort of a form of semi-independence. However, both the French and the Bourbonese knew that this was a temporary measure, and that sooner or later Terre-Bourbon was going to get full self-governance. The bigger question was how the independent Terre-Bourbon would be governed. The Bourbonese generally had positive feelings towards the French monarchy, so a Republic was unlikely. However, even though Terre-Bourbon was to stay connected to the French crown, who would take the role as head of state of Terre-Bourbon was debated. One proposal was for something similar to the British dominions, where the King of France would remain the King of Terre-Bourbon. Another was for one of the younger brothers of the French king to form a cadet branch and become King of Terre-Bourbon. Other proposals included giving another French noble family the throne or making the younger brother/closest non-child male relative of the French king the Duke of Terre-Bourbon. In the end, however, they went with the easiest option and simply added “King of Terre-Bourbon” to the King of France’s titles. Thus, on April 6th, 1939 (the 110th anniversary of the foundation of the Terre-Bourbon colony), the Kingdom of Terre-Bourbon was proclaimed to be a self-governing realm within the greater French Empire.
Further west along the shores of the Indian Ocean, New Holland was also seeking to become sovereign. The population surpassed the one million mark in the Early 1930s, growing to 1.335 Million by 1950, meaning that independence was pretty much inevitable, especially considering that The Netherlands were a rather small country. With that said, political leaders of both The Netherlands and the New Holland colony agreed to grant New Holland independence. So, on October 3rd, 1938 (the 115th anniversary of the establishment of New Holland as a Dutch colony), the Republic of New Holland gained political independence from The Netherlands, although they still retained strong ties to the mother country. Dutch ships were allowed to dock in New Holland’s ports, Dutchmen continued to move to New Holland and Dutch companies still maintained a large presence in the country.
Finally, we’re gonna go to the north of the continent and look at Capricornia, the Portuguese colony spanning the area north of the Tropic of Capricorn. The population of the colony grew from 170,000 in 1900 up to 585,000 in 1950. Despite being a Portuguese colony, ethnic Portuguese only made up around ¼ of the population (Portuguese emigres preferred to go to the much closer Brazil). The largest ethnic group in the colony were Asians (mainly Indians and Indonesians) brought in to work on plantations (mainly growing sugar, coffee and tropical fruit), along with Aboriginals and Mestiços, who were of mixed Portuguese, Asian and sometimes Aboriginal origin. Apart from the densely populated East Coast and the coastal Top End, Capricornia was largely empty, only inhabited by cattle ranchers, miners and Aboriginals. Despite the official language being Portuguese, most of the population came to speak Capricornian Creole, a Portuguese-derived creole language that drew influences from Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Austronesian and Aboriginal languages. Capricornia was the segment of Terra Australis where the Aboriginals had the most autonomy, especially outside of the coastal areas. Portuguese involvement in Aboriginal life didn’t extend much beyond the occasional Catholic mission or ranching and mining exploration, and aboriginal culture was coming to be viewed as part of the country’s heritage. As for independence, talks between Capricornian elites and the Portuguese government were underway for a separate Capricornian dominion, although no agreement had been reached as of 1950.
The independence of Australia, Terre-Bourbon and New Holland were a boon for the independence movements in the British, French and Dutch colonies in Asia, as they saw the much less populated colonies in Terra Australis gain independence. The British, French and Dutch also knew that they couldn’t hold onto these densely populated areas indefinitely, but weren’t quite willing to let go yet. How the story of Asian independence will play out is yet to be seen, and I will be there to tell it when the time comes, but until then, have a great day.
Regrets, Revisions and Retcons
Hey guys
I’ve been writing this TL for three years now, and for the most part, I’ve been extremely happy with it. However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t have any things I regret about the direction this TL has gone in, so I’m going to share some things I’d revise, whether it be through a retcon or in a future Maps & Graphics TL.
First, the map. I’m for the most part pretty satisfied with how the world map looks as of now, and most of the changes I’d like to make are minor ones in more peripheral regions of the world, but they’re changes nonetheless, and I might rip the band-aid off with the biggest change of them all:
I don’t like the Scandinavian New Zealand idea.
Yes, I know it’s something you guys were insistent on (and something I initially agreed to), and I have ancestral ties to the region that cause me to have an interest in the region (I’d be interested in doing a surviving-Kalmar-Union-turned-Scandinavian-Empire TL someday). However, there’s a reason I called my first New Zealand update “The Improbably Colony”, that being that I find colonies established on the other side of the world by two mid-sized powers exceedingly unlikely. I’ve had a soft spot for a German colony in New Zealand (or a German settler colony anywhere) for a while now, but that doesn’t seem much more likely than Scandinavian New Zealand. Neither Prussia nor Austria were ever naval powers (despite attempts from both), and while there were German settlements in New Zealand IOTL (notably in Nelson, plus a proposal to settle the Chatham Islands), they were organized through the British New Zealand Company. However, I did have them colonize New Caledonia shortly after the Nords colonized New Zealand in this timeline, so maybe I just have them colonize New Zealand anyway? I don’t know, I’ll figure this out.
Moving across the Tasman Sea to Australia (or Terra Australis ITTL), there’s one thing I’d like to change. Quite frankly, I don’t think it’d be realistic for the Portuguese to colonize the east coast of Northern Australia. Their naval presence based out of their Indonesian colonies would be concentrated in the Timor Sea, Arafura Sea and the Gulf of Carpentaria, but I don’t see it extending beyond the tip of Cape York. Meanwhile, the British have already colonized the East Coast of Australia, and would probably seek to extend their control along the entire east coast. Thus, I’d give the eastern part of Portuguese Capricornia to the British, with the border being at the 141st meridian east and the Norman River, or somewhere around the longitude of OTL’s Normanton. As compensation to the Iberians, I’d give Patagonia north of the Colorado River to La Plata.
On another topic, I feel like I’ve messed up parts of the history. For example, the Spanish colonies having little to no autonomy until the 20th Century is highly unlikely IMO, and yet that’s how it turned out in my timeline. For example, I could see the Criollos (who led the Latin American Revolutions of OTL) gaining more autonomy and self-governance in the Early-Mid 19th Century, with it later being extended to Mestizos at some point (Black and Amerindian political rights would likely not happen by this point in the TL). The same is true of La Floride, which I don’t recall having some sort of colonial parliament (although I might’ve done it and I’m just too lazy to check), but it’d likely happen in the Mid 19th Century, due to Floridian population growth and to satiate the growing Floridian Nationalist movement. Latin America in general is a region I might need to rework in a significant way.
Finally, I don’t like the German Mitteleuropa after the Second Global War. Sure, it was an OTL proposal, and sure, they did win, but Germany ITTL is split between Prussian domination of the north and an Austro-Bavarian union in the south. Without Bavaria, I don’t know if this Prussian-led North Germany would be strong enough to dominate Eastern Europe, and it would also lock Russia out of influence in Eastern Europe, which I don’t find realistic long term (I want Europe to stay interesting). New states that were split off from Russia like Baltia and Estonia could end up being German dominated, but Poland (which was never partitioned and survived throughout the entire 19th Century ITL) could hold some influence of its own, and Ukraine is too close to and too similar to Russia to not have some sort of Russian influence in the Country. I could either work with it for the rest of the timeline and change it in the Maps & Graphics TL (which is coming, likely sometime in 2022), or I could either retcon it and tell people to skip the Mitteleuropa update.
On the topic of OTL proposals, I feel like I’ve relied too much on parallelism at points in this TL. Sure, having a world war in the 1860s and 1870s and having a more limited Scramble For Africa was different, but I had a world war in the 1910s followed by an economic crash starting in the late 1920s and running through the 1930s (albeit without another world war in the late 1930s and early-mid 1940s). Obviously I need OTL as a point of reference, but I feel as though I’ve made some aspects of this TL to be too similar to our own world. Share your thoughts and tell me what you think, and have a good day.
(BTW, this is my 3000th post on alternatehistory.com, so that's something).
I’ve been writing this TL for three years now, and for the most part, I’ve been extremely happy with it. However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t have any things I regret about the direction this TL has gone in, so I’m going to share some things I’d revise, whether it be through a retcon or in a future Maps & Graphics TL.
First, the map. I’m for the most part pretty satisfied with how the world map looks as of now, and most of the changes I’d like to make are minor ones in more peripheral regions of the world, but they’re changes nonetheless, and I might rip the band-aid off with the biggest change of them all:
I don’t like the Scandinavian New Zealand idea.
Yes, I know it’s something you guys were insistent on (and something I initially agreed to), and I have ancestral ties to the region that cause me to have an interest in the region (I’d be interested in doing a surviving-Kalmar-Union-turned-Scandinavian-Empire TL someday). However, there’s a reason I called my first New Zealand update “The Improbably Colony”, that being that I find colonies established on the other side of the world by two mid-sized powers exceedingly unlikely. I’ve had a soft spot for a German colony in New Zealand (or a German settler colony anywhere) for a while now, but that doesn’t seem much more likely than Scandinavian New Zealand. Neither Prussia nor Austria were ever naval powers (despite attempts from both), and while there were German settlements in New Zealand IOTL (notably in Nelson, plus a proposal to settle the Chatham Islands), they were organized through the British New Zealand Company. However, I did have them colonize New Caledonia shortly after the Nords colonized New Zealand in this timeline, so maybe I just have them colonize New Zealand anyway? I don’t know, I’ll figure this out.
Moving across the Tasman Sea to Australia (or Terra Australis ITTL), there’s one thing I’d like to change. Quite frankly, I don’t think it’d be realistic for the Portuguese to colonize the east coast of Northern Australia. Their naval presence based out of their Indonesian colonies would be concentrated in the Timor Sea, Arafura Sea and the Gulf of Carpentaria, but I don’t see it extending beyond the tip of Cape York. Meanwhile, the British have already colonized the East Coast of Australia, and would probably seek to extend their control along the entire east coast. Thus, I’d give the eastern part of Portuguese Capricornia to the British, with the border being at the 141st meridian east and the Norman River, or somewhere around the longitude of OTL’s Normanton. As compensation to the Iberians, I’d give Patagonia north of the Colorado River to La Plata.
On another topic, I feel like I’ve messed up parts of the history. For example, the Spanish colonies having little to no autonomy until the 20th Century is highly unlikely IMO, and yet that’s how it turned out in my timeline. For example, I could see the Criollos (who led the Latin American Revolutions of OTL) gaining more autonomy and self-governance in the Early-Mid 19th Century, with it later being extended to Mestizos at some point (Black and Amerindian political rights would likely not happen by this point in the TL). The same is true of La Floride, which I don’t recall having some sort of colonial parliament (although I might’ve done it and I’m just too lazy to check), but it’d likely happen in the Mid 19th Century, due to Floridian population growth and to satiate the growing Floridian Nationalist movement. Latin America in general is a region I might need to rework in a significant way.
Finally, I don’t like the German Mitteleuropa after the Second Global War. Sure, it was an OTL proposal, and sure, they did win, but Germany ITTL is split between Prussian domination of the north and an Austro-Bavarian union in the south. Without Bavaria, I don’t know if this Prussian-led North Germany would be strong enough to dominate Eastern Europe, and it would also lock Russia out of influence in Eastern Europe, which I don’t find realistic long term (I want Europe to stay interesting). New states that were split off from Russia like Baltia and Estonia could end up being German dominated, but Poland (which was never partitioned and survived throughout the entire 19th Century ITL) could hold some influence of its own, and Ukraine is too close to and too similar to Russia to not have some sort of Russian influence in the Country. I could either work with it for the rest of the timeline and change it in the Maps & Graphics TL (which is coming, likely sometime in 2022), or I could either retcon it and tell people to skip the Mitteleuropa update.
On the topic of OTL proposals, I feel like I’ve relied too much on parallelism at points in this TL. Sure, having a world war in the 1860s and 1870s and having a more limited Scramble For Africa was different, but I had a world war in the 1910s followed by an economic crash starting in the late 1920s and running through the 1930s (albeit without another world war in the late 1930s and early-mid 1940s). Obviously I need OTL as a point of reference, but I feel as though I’ve made some aspects of this TL to be too similar to our own world. Share your thoughts and tell me what you think, and have a good day.
(BTW, this is my 3000th post on alternatehistory.com, so that's something).
At the end of the day, I don’t think I can recall a TL that doesn’t have parallelism to some degree. The key, though, is to make sure it doesn’t overshadow everything and this TL is clearly divergent from OTL. With regards to New Zealand, it makes more sense for Sweden to colonize it imo. Apparently there was a plan for the Swedish to enter a marriage-alliance with Britain in exchange for Tasmania/New Zealand. Plus, it’s pretty plausible for Sweden to colonize at least part of Oceania, especially without the British being focused on demanding the entire thing for themselves. Heck, when they tried to colonize part of Australia, the Swedes actually had more funding than the British. As far as the economic crash goes, it really depends on how prosperous the winning side is after the Second global war and income equality. I wouldn’t tell people to skip over MittleEuropa either of you retcon. I can’t say anything about the other things.
Holy crud, has this really been going on for three years?
Congrats my dude
Yup, three years. Started it in my senior year of high school. Getting close to the conclusion, only 80 years to go. Don't know how I'm gonna handle the latter half of the 20th Century, though. The borders don't change much in Europe and there are no major global military conflicts, but the cultural changes are enormous.
Polls on decolonization in Asia
When does it happen: https://strawpoll.com/v9rrp9c89
How does it happen: https://strawpoll.com/kz6kx67zz
When does it happen: https://strawpoll.com/v9rrp9c89
How does it happen: https://strawpoll.com/kz6kx67zz