How could the Spartans go imperial?

[Tyr]

I've been playing Rome Total War 2 recently.
Yes, I know, sharp intakes of breath, an absolutely horrible way to learn anything remotely to do with history.
Obviously Sparta becoming an analogue for the Roman Empire as it has in my game is stupid.

But, playing the game has got me thinking about real Spartan history.
What if, they did manage to carve out a little empire for themselves?
Nothing on a Roman scale of course, but a more significant chunk of Greece than they did IOTL.
What if we get to a situation where Sparta has no choice but to annex other cities, merely making them pay tribute wouldn't work for some reason.

The main direction of my thoughts was....what would come of Spartan society in this situation?
Could they hold to their strict ideas of citizenship? But what then, what would happen with all of these free non-citizens running about?
Is it simply impossible for Sparta to get an empire as it would always be stuck sitting on the lesser peoples with its limited Spartan numbers?

 

[Falecius]

Is it simply impossible for Sparta to get an empire as it would always be stuck sitting on the lesser peoples with its limited Spartan numbers?

This seems to have been the Spartan elite's own understanding. They are portrayed in most Greek sources as cherishing their kosmos, the fixed social hierarchy and insititution, more than dominance over other cities, and consistently chose the first when having to choose.
When they had hegemonic power over greece, they blundered horribly - and probably that was inbuilt in their society to a point - think of the worldview molded in Spartan education, and consider how likely is an individual with that worldview to do well as a governor of a mercantile city. A hell of a lot of greek polities were mercantile, to a point at least.

 

[phil03]

But, playing the game has got me thinking about real Spartan history.
What if, they did manage to carve out a little empire for themselves?
Nothing on a Roman scale of course, but a more significant chunk of Greece than they did IOTL.
What if we get to a situation where Sparta has no choice but to annex other cities, merely making them pay tribute wouldn't work for some reason.

The problem with having Sparta build an empire who will last for more then a couple of years is the origins of their power.

Sparta strenght was that all is citizen population, the homoioi were professional soldier who did little else then fight and train. This was only made possible by the enslavement of the Messenian, a population a couple of times the size of the population of Sparta.

Their was, of course, a downside, the Messenian hated the Spartans with a furious passion and only waited for an occasion to throw off their yoke and kill them all. Sparta was, therefore, incapable of sending the bulk of is army out of the Peloponesis for a long amount of time, and will have dificulty conserving even fairly close conquest.

It is, of course, possible, with a very old POD to totaly change Spartian society and have them going on a conquest rampage after but this Sparta will have little in common with the OTL one.

 

[othyrsyde]

It would have to open up its doors for more people to become citizens. Perhaps a social pressure valve that gives the Messenians enough hope to advance within the system that they are more unlikely to rebel. You would also have to have something occur that breaks the tradition of Greece being made up of an alliance of city-states, even if it is rather a farce and dominated by a principal polity. Even when the Macedonians united Greece, they didn't set themselves up officially as the overlords of Greece and still kept the homeland of their empire as a Corinthian League.

Still, from my understanding, the Spartans enslaving the Messenians in the first place was a big break in the treatment of fellow Greeks. So they might take this a step further if they went imperial.

 

[Draeger]

Read Thucydides' "The Peloponnesian War"

Sparta had their own sort-of 'empire', and they mismanaged it horribly.

 

[Tjakari]

Is it wrong to say to the Spartans changing their ways is damn near impossible while keeping them recognizably Spartan.

Perhaps something major breaks the Spartan system in such a way that it destroys any major push to restore it. Perhaps if Sparta was sacked, not taken, just plundered to all hell with no reinforcements coming.

It would the culture an impetus to move beyond Sparta to ensure that nothing like that would happen again, in the sack the slavery system is broken with no central authority with enough force can fix it back to its previous form. Spartans rebuild, mustering up their old martial courage they implement a modified Spartan training. They then capture the Peloponnesus and move out from there.

 

[Remitonov]

The problem with having Sparta build an empire who will last for more then a couple of years is the origins of their power.

Sparta strenght was that all is citizen population, the homoioi were professional soldier who did little else then fight and train. This was only made possible by the enslavement of the Messenian, a population a couple of times the size of the population of Sparta.

Their was, of course, a downside, the Messenian hated the Spartans with a furious passion and only waited for an occasion to throw off their yoke and kill them all. Sparta was, therefore, incapable of sending the bulk of is army out of the Peloponesis for a long amount of time, and will have dificulty conserving even fairly close conquest.

It is, of course, possible, with a very old POD to totaly change Spartian society and have them going on a conquest rampage after but this Sparta will have little in common with the OTL one.

Ya, the Agoge and Helot systems would have to be the first to go.

To add to what's already said about the helot system, the agoge is just a huge manpower sink with high, almost unjustified attrition. While it does churn out strong, highly professional soldiers, the numbers that die in between training is pretty wasteful for a city state wishing to go imperial. Hell, IOTL, the citizen male population repeatedly sent to the red because of it, and they still needed to watch the helots, a very unhealthy combination.

In order for Sparta to make any headway to domination, it could be possible to turn the agoge into a 'voluntary' system (with parents nominating their children for training), and perhaps knocking down the attrition a notch. Meanwhile, the city state could relax its citizenship laws to include Perioikoi (free men) and maybe ex-Helots. While this would send overall troop effectiveness plummeting, they will have a larger manpower pool to draw from, combined with a smaller, but nonetheless effective core of elite troops. It's not going to look a lot like the Sparta IOTL, but our Sparta is a city-state built to maintain its own little world, not conquering the world.

 

[casval]

I've been playing Rome Total War 2 recently.
Yes, I know, sharp intakes of breath, an absolutely horrible way to learn anything remotely to do with history.
Obviously Sparta becoming an analogue for the Roman Empire as it has in my game is stupid.

But, playing the game has got me thinking about real Spartan history.
What if, they did manage to carve out a little empire for themselves?
Nothing on a Roman scale of course, but a more significant chunk of Greece than they did IOTL.
What if we get to a situation where Sparta has no choice but to annex other cities, merely making them pay tribute wouldn't work for some reason.

The main direction of my thoughts was....what would come of Spartan society in this situation?
Could they hold to their strict ideas of citizenship? But what then, what would happen with all of these free non-citizens running about?
Is it simply impossible for Sparta to get an empire as it would always be stuck sitting on the lesser peoples with its limited Spartan numbers?

I am doing almost the same thing, except by 110BC, the empire rivals that of the Romans by then

 

[Eivind]

What about Sparta declaring war on Athens at an earlier stage?

 

[Tjakari]

What about Sparta declaring war on Athens at an earlier stage?

Doesn't matter what war they fight, it's the aftermath of the war that dictates the course. The Spartans could fight Athens a thousand times and each time would probably make it less likely for them to conquer the Athenians.

 

[scottrich]

Just to go all the way with this:

Have Xerxes conquer Greece. After taking Queen Gorgo as one of his wives, she successfully stages a counter coup and revolt. Greece would be more influenced by the East but they'd have a 'instant empire'.