uh... huh? I'm looking through my copy of "The Vinland Sagas" (specifically, the Greenlanders' Saga), and the chapter on Karlsefni's colony notes that the bull just scared the natives by bellowing. The fight was caused by a native trying to steal some of the Norse weapons (something I can believe.. the natives weren't stupid, and would have seen the value of the steel right away). The native got killed for his efforts, and the natives attacked later. "Erik's Saga" (a tale I regard as a lot more dubious, due to the heavy mention of Christianity and some weird stuff like Unipeds being added in) mentions that the natives were also scared by the bull, and that they attacked later because of it. Neither mentions a native being trampled by the bull. Come to think of it, if you're looking for a reason for Norse/native conflict in this POD, the natives trying to steal tools or weapons or livestock would do it...
How far could Vinland grow?
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uh... huh? I'm looking through my copy of "The Vinland Sagas" (specifically, the Greenlanders' Saga), and the chapter on Karlsefni's colony notes that the bull just scared the natives by bellowing. The fight was caused by a native trying to steal some of the Norse weapons (something I can believe.. the natives weren't stupid, and would have seen the value of the steel right away). The native got killed for his efforts, and the natives attacked later. "Erik's Saga" (a tale I regard as a lot more dubious, due to the heavy mention of Christianity and some weird stuff like Unipeds being added in) mentions that the natives were also scared by the bull, and that they attacked later because of it. Neither mentions a native being trampled by the bull. Come to think of it, if you're looking for a reason for Norse/native conflict in this POD, the natives trying to steal tools or weapons or livestock would do it...
Bavarian Raven
Banned
It depends on which "version" of the Sagas you read. i have read this account as well. But possibly both occurred as one - several natives are sneaking into said settlement to liberate some tools, etc, spook the bull (which was apparently a very distempered animal), bull charges, the noise alert the settlers...and the rest is history.
While the Sagas are of real history, they were written with a certain point of view (ie the Norses). So maybe the Norse didn't want to admit they were constantly being robbed by the natives, etc. Whoknows. Chances are we never will. That's half the fun of studying these ancient bits of seldom looked at history.
I always thought that 'The Greenlanders' Saga' was pretty reasonable history... there's a bare minimum of weird supernatural stuff, and it reads pretty matter of fact... basically, people went here and there and did stuff. The writer(s) weren't averse to showing the Norse in a bad light at times (the cheating of the natives when giving out tiny strips of red cloth, and the whole story of Freydis).
The total technological advantage of the Norse would be smaller. Which is why the farming settlements of the Norse would be in the northern areas where Indians do not farm.
But the Norse would be attracted to trading with the more numerous maize-growing Indians to their South.
And the outlaws would be pickimg more attractive and promising hosts, too.
But the Norse would be attracted to trading with the more numerous maize-growing Indians to their South.
And the outlaws would be pickimg more attractive and promising hosts, too.
Dissemination of crops and livestock would be even faster, I think, at least amongst peoples who already have a concept of farming.
Especially crops. Handling captive animals needs learning a large new skill set. Adding barley, rye or oats to people who already are growing maize, not so much.
To whoever mentioned people leaving Russia to go to Vinland...while individual men could be extremely far-faring, as a mass phenomenon this is highly unlikely. Russia at the time has plenty of empty land itself and is taxed very lightly, whether by the folks in Kiev or the nomad empires.
Typically it's assumed that it was Swedes in particular that went east, but if you look at the actual names involved, Russia's main contacts were with the Norwegian dynasts and adventurers. The Baltic and beyond was probably a VERY severe competitor for wealthy merchant-warriors to going west.
In fact I imagine that getting more elites involved by barring Rus/Greekland/Ireland to them (somehow) could in fact be the key. Elites will provoke trouble with the natives, but they can also be huge multipliers in terms of both internal organisation and warmaking.
The weak point in all of this is Iceland. It's poor and deforested. It's a terrible stop-point from the 12th c.
Typically it's assumed that it was Swedes in particular that went east, but if you look at the actual names involved, Russia's main contacts were with the Norwegian dynasts and adventurers. The Baltic and beyond was probably a VERY severe competitor for wealthy merchant-warriors to going west.
In fact I imagine that getting more elites involved by barring Rus/Greekland/Ireland to them (somehow) could in fact be the key. Elites will provoke trouble with the natives, but they can also be huge multipliers in terms of both internal organisation and warmaking.
The weak point in all of this is Iceland. It's poor and deforested. It's a terrible stop-point from the 12th c.
Occasional bands of Utlagr (outlawed people), who've sailed an traded previously with the indigenous communities, may travel to ones they've done business most often and some may choose to live there permanently. And if the outlaw's skill-set involves blacksmithing, herding or farming, they would impart that skill to their half-Algonquian or Iroquois children. Another side-effect of this is that some small tribe who've gotten powerful from this infusion of Norse tech into their community would be that they themselves will have a degree of Norse ancestral heritage, and maybe a healthy mix of both Scandinavian and Native American folklore in their culture.
Mind you, if they assimilate enough technology animal domsetication and agriculture, individual tribes would have the energy for nothing else than to subjugate their neighbours. Conquering Vinland, assuming it grows large enough to dominate Newfoundland and the maritime Canada, would be beyond could be too big a task for them.
Another thing which would arise in Vinland, and be absent from Iceland OTL, is specialized merchants.
In Iceland, due to shortage of timber, the ships were few after 11th century, and trading was done by merchants from Norway.
In Vinland, there would be ships built. Most of the settlers would stay in their new homes and farm. A minority would specialize to sail long distance ships - one direction to Iceland and Europe beyond, the other direction far to the South to trade with Indians.
In Iceland, due to shortage of timber, the ships were few after 11th century, and trading was done by merchants from Norway.
In Vinland, there would be ships built. Most of the settlers would stay in their new homes and farm. A minority would specialize to sail long distance ships - one direction to Iceland and Europe beyond, the other direction far to the South to trade with Indians.
Bavarian Raven
Banned
Don't forget inland too.
Eastern 2/3rds of North America is a giant mesh of navitable river systems with relatively few portages, etc. It would not take them that long to explore a vast section of the north east and probably* create a massive trade network.Faeelin
Banned
Don't forget inland too.
You and Chorned raise interesitng questions, but what's going to be passed along this massive trading network? I actually thought of the Kievan Rus as an analogy initially, but there's no silver, spices, or silks on the other end.
There's copper in the great lakes region. I'm pretty sure the Indians also traded in pearls. There's also the posibility that even if the Vinlanders don't come to value the things natives value for themselves they'll still trade in them on the basis of acruing wealth that can be spent on things they do want, such as furs and copper.
Gold is found Chaudiere River in the Beauce region of Quebec. If by some chance the Norse discover this after they started investigating the St Lawrence River and its tributaries, I wonder if they would have anyone among them who can specialize in extracting precious metals.
Mild return to subject!
BEST CASE SCENARIO FOR VINLAND GROWING What is it?
We know the worst case scenario is either OTL or a big storm making it even less than OTL. So assuming a lot of things went right, they started earlier than they did, had decent population growth and got well established, how far would Vinland grow?
I can see Vikings establishing themselves well on Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia by 1200. How far do they get by 1492? Are vikings going to be greeting Christopher Columbus? How far down the east coast and how far inland are they spreading? I can see them building settlements down in Florida, with further trade posts throughout the carribean. I can also see vikings pushing all the way to the Mississippi, but that might for a barrier of sorts with more vikings preferring to push south before crossing. I can also see Vikings pushing into Hudson bay and the great lakes by this point.
BEST CASE SCENARIO FOR VINLAND GROWING What is it?
We know the worst case scenario is either OTL or a big storm making it even less than OTL. So assuming a lot of things went right, they started earlier than they did, had decent population growth and got well established, how far would Vinland grow?
I can see Vikings establishing themselves well on Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia by 1200. How far do they get by 1492? Are vikings going to be greeting Christopher Columbus? How far down the east coast and how far inland are they spreading? I can see them building settlements down in Florida, with further trade posts throughout the carribean. I can also see vikings pushing all the way to the Mississippi, but that might for a barrier of sorts with more vikings preferring to push south before crossing. I can also see Vikings pushing into Hudson bay and the great lakes by this point.
Assuming the Vinlanders, Marklanders and what-have-you (not all of them would be Vikings) enjoy a long spate of success, ongoing trade with Europe would mean that North America is known to the Europeans, although it will be a very low priority for centuries yet. The Vinlanders, assuming they establish a strong presence in the Canadian maritimes, would probably be in a position to explore the Caribbean long before the Europeans follow. Chances are, though that by the 16th century, the European countries would still have more manpower to colonise Most of the Americas. But if the Vinlanders maintain economic contact with Europe from the time of their founding, then they should be able to upgrade their ship designs and maybe explore the oceans as the Portuguese and Spanish did at the same time. Best case scenario for the Vinlanders is that they maintain a sort of hegemonic power over their Native American neighbours and customers and concentrate on trade over military expansionism. I imagine a successful version of Vinland in 1400-1500's as resembling the United Provinces of the Netherlands.
The Icelandic age of settlement lasted roughly 50 years. By the end of that period the population is estimated to be 60 000. http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/Demographics.htm
The actual number of migrants though are estimated at only 15 000-20 000. This strongly suggests that Norse colonies had at the same demographic dynamics as later British and French ones, with a natural growth of 3 % or so per year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_Iceland#The_age_of_settlement_ends
Thus my original point stands: as soon as the Norse have established a population large enough that divided hunter-gatherers can't wipe them put anymore, they are likely to very quickly spread down both the eastern seaboard and the down the st lawrence. Expect a huge population explosion around 1200-1300.
Newfoundland is the same size as Iceland and with similar climate. In Iceland the population stagnated at 70 000. However, the Norse are likely to start leaving Newfoundland, since even before they hit the Malthusian glass ceiling a higher living-standard will be available across the bay.
A founding population of a 1000 people (after the initial mortalities), a rather modest assumption in light of Iceland settlement, would reach 20 000 after a hundred years under this model. Expect new settlements to be formed soon after.
The actual number of migrants though are estimated at only 15 000-20 000. This strongly suggests that Norse colonies had at the same demographic dynamics as later British and French ones, with a natural growth of 3 % or so per year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_Iceland#The_age_of_settlement_ends
Thus my original point stands: as soon as the Norse have established a population large enough that divided hunter-gatherers can't wipe them put anymore, they are likely to very quickly spread down both the eastern seaboard and the down the st lawrence. Expect a huge population explosion around 1200-1300.
Newfoundland is the same size as Iceland and with similar climate. In Iceland the population stagnated at 70 000. However, the Norse are likely to start leaving Newfoundland, since even before they hit the Malthusian glass ceiling a higher living-standard will be available across the bay.
A founding population of a 1000 people (after the initial mortalities), a rather modest assumption in light of Iceland settlement, would reach 20 000 after a hundred years under this model. Expect new settlements to be formed soon after.
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Indeed, if contact with Iceland isn't cut off this process would be even faster. At this point Iceland is still something of a frontier country and as soon as a Vinland colony has been properly established thousands of Icelanders are likely to set sail (with boats made from Vinland timber). Vinland could for a long time function as a safety valvet for the Icelandic population, allowing them to dodge the over-population trap.