In Bush v. Gore (December 2000), SCOTUS orders state-wide recount of Florida vote ? ?

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Some Florida polling places were understaffed and election officials DID NOT remove “chads” from the tray as the day went on. And therefore, voters later in the day could not punch cleanly through.

The Supreme Court ordered that since different recount methods were being used, the recount violated equal protection. And especially since some Florida counties were not recounting at all, they kind of have a point.

What it instead—

SCOTUS orders that all Florida counties must do a prompt recount ? ?

Bonus points: To light a fire under Florida’s ass, the Supreme Court decision states that if a prompt and high-quality is not done, all of Florida’s results are considered suspect and the Florida delegation in both the U.S. House and Senate will not seat.

Super Bonus Points: The SCOTUS decision allows Clinton to stay President an extra 2 weeks and the Court rules that this is A-okay, no problem.
 
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In the Super Bonus Points decision, the court would lose all legitimacy. Even the leftist justices would have to agree the Speaker of the House must be the acting President.
 
agree the Speaker of the House must be the acting President.
Hi, welcome to AH! 😃 I think you’ll find us a feisty group with an interesting variety of skill sets.


And yes, let’s roll with the Speaker of the House:

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Dennis Hastert (R - Illinois’s 14th District)

Hastert was Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives from Jan. 1999 to Jan. 2007. Let’s say he serves as acting President for 10 days from Jan. 20th to 30th, 2001, and let’s say he does a fine-caretaker job without overplaying his hand.

However,

It started coming to light around 2015 that Hastert had committed sexual abuse while a high school coach.


Damn. And even though it was teenagers, and not children, not so cool. Not so cool at all. And though he was never prosecuted for the abuse itself, he was busted for hush money payments and structuring cash withdrawals in a way which violated money laundering laws. And Hastert served 13 months in federal prison starting in 2016.

If he’s an ex-president, no matter how briefly, this is a much bigger deal.

And hopefully,

This advances the societal conversation on sexual abuse in a realistic and constructive way [maybe almost teaching prevention, intervention, and triage skills in the manner of first aid]. But no guarantees.
 
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And meanwhile, the Florida recount has determined that . . .
Bush would still have won.
That said, the only reason a Federal Question was raised was due to equal protection issues and that (by 7-2) is what doomed Gore. A full state wide recount has no Federal Question.
 
Bush would still have won.
That said, the only reason a Federal Question was raised was due to equal protection issues and that (by 7-2) is what doomed Gore. A full state wide recount has no Federal Question.
According to the wikipedia article, had the Supreme Court simply said that the recount can continue, Bush almost certainly still wins. However, had they called for a statewide recount, it's likely Gore would win.

But as you mentioned, there was simply no way the court would have ever called for a statewide recount, (which had already been conducted) and even Gore did not call for that, so realistically I don't think Gore could have won.
 
was due to equal protection issues and that (by 7-2) is what doomed Gore.


Bush v. Gore was decided by a 5-4 vote, and that’s one reason the Supreme Court lost credibility. In fact, SCOTUS lost quite a bit of credibility due to this decision. Not the country. For those of us who are American citizens, our country is so much bigger, braver, louder, splashier, kinder and more optimistic, than just the government.
 
However, had they called for a statewide recount, it's likely Gore would win.
All the same, let’s suppose Bush still wins.

He has somewhat more credibility early in his presidency, but he already had a lot as a wartime president [after September 11th]. House Speaker Dennis Hastert has more stature as a brief acting president.

We do the 2001 tax cuts, but no additional tax cuts. We don’t try to occupy and re-build Afghanistan on the cheap. And 50-50 whether we go into Iraq [because hoping for more than that seems too much].
 
All the same, let’s suppose Bush still wins.

He has somewhat more credibility early in his presidency, but he already had a lot as a wartime president [after September 11th]. House Speaker Dennis Hastert has more stature as a brief acting president.

We do the 2001 tax cuts, but no additional tax cuts. We don’t try to occupy and re-build Afghanistan on the cheap. And 50-50 whether we go into Iraq [because hoping for more than that seems too much].

Unless you get rid of Rumsfeld then you're still going to get the same problems because Afghanistan was never a priority. You're still going to have them go after Iraq because that was seen by the majority of the Bush Administration as the "key" to the Middle East and as the "main" goal of involvement in the Middle East. There's just no way to really change that unless you have some sort of MAJOR shake up of the Administration. (Literally EVERYONE in the Administration EXCEPT for Bush was on-board with going into Iraq for regime change YEARS before they got into power. It was a major neo-con talking point and expected the moment they got any kind of excuse to do so)

Randy
 
. . . You're still going to have them go after Iraq because that was seen by the majority of the Bush Administration as the "key" to the Middle East and as the "main" goal of involvement in the Middle East. There's just no way to really change that unless you have some sort of MAJOR shake up of the Administration. (Literally EVERYONE in the Administration EXCEPT for Bush was on-board . . .
Let me suggest that we do a little role-reversal if you like.

I think you’ve done a very good job of identifying a major obstacle [to our avoiding involvement in Iraq]. Please allow me to add to this obstacle, and then perhaps you could put forward a solution which still gives us at least a 50% chance [of avoiding involvement].

My obstacle — the neo-cons are going to play the courage card. In my view, misplay it. But they’re going to say conflict with Saddam Hussein is almost inevitable and sooner on our terms is better than later on their terms. And that it’s “craven,” or “cowardly,” or “wishful thinking” [take your pick] to try something else.

And to a point, they’re right. But there has to be a better alternative. And that’s my point.

And, your even better solution is . . . [if you choose to play along and you certainly don’t have to!]
 
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Let me suggest that we do a little role-reversal if you like.

I think you’ve done a very good job of identifying a major obstacle [to our avoiding involvement in Iraq]. Please allow me to add to this obstacle, and then perhaps you could put forward a solution which still gives us at least a 50% chance [of avoiding involvement].

My obstacle — the neo-cons are going to play the courage card. In my view, misplay it. But they’re going to say conflict with Saddam Hussein is almost inevitable and sooner on our terms is better than later on their terms. And that it’s “craven,” or “cowardly,” or “wishful thinking” [take your pick] to try something else.

And to a point, they’re right. But there has to be a better alternative. And that’s my point.

And, your even better solution is . . . [if you choose to play along and you certainly don’t have to!]

I'd love to but unfortunately this was something that was 'coming' since the First Gulf War and most of us who were there KNEW we'd be back in a decade or less depending on the politics :) The "solution" is that Gore wins at which point the Neo-Cons continue to block any possible action on Iraq while continuing to loudly decry the "Democrat lack of action" which they had been doing to the entire Clinton Administration. (Not that Clinton wanted to expand on Iraq as far as everyone could tell containment and sanctions WAS working but not enough to get Saddam out of power)

Once the Neo-Cons were in power the conflict was inevitable though without 9/11 it gets vastly harder to 'justify'. (So a secondary possible "solution" is to avoid 9/11, though to be fair it's not likely Gore would go into Iraq even then) It was their main talking point and "issue" for the entire Clinton Presidency and they had essentially talked themselves into a corner on 'doing' something once they were in charge. All they needed was an 'excuse'.
They initially got 'side-tracked' by Bush's insistence on an "effective" ABM system built which was Democrat opposed and presaged the type of opposition they would have faced sans the 9/11 wave of public support. Bush side-stepped that by initiating a BRaC (Base Realignment and Closure) to free up DoD money to put into the ABM system and withdrawing from the US/USSR ABM treaty but Iraq was still on the list of "First Term" goals. They had been and still were gearing up the propaganda for attacking Iraq with everything from mobile biological laboratories to hidden nuclear weapons production facilities and plans to "ship" nuclear and/or biological weapons into the US.
While this was not working directly the constant exposure from political and media sources was very much beginning to wear down the publics resolve for not getting into a conflict. 9/11 provided the environment of a general public fear with which they could plausibly tie Saddam to having been a part of or supporting the attack and therefore being a direct threat. The rest is history....

The only real option for NOT going into Iraq is either some OTHER crisis that clearly can not be tied to Iraq or Saddam taking front stage, (hence "no 9/11") or Gore winning.
Now if Gore wins they will likely back off on the Iraq rhetoric for a bit but will ramp up again as soon as they can be sure that Gore won't go into Iraq. At which point they will spend however long Gore is President calling him a coward and useless for NOT going into Iraq and tying Iraq as tightly as possible to 9/11 as the did OTL in preparation for the next election.

I agree there SHOULD be a "better" solution but this wasn't about solving any "real" problem in the first place and all about a Neo-Con position that had become policy despite having no basis in any reality. The Neo-Con position that "you can't wait till your President is in charge" was EXACTLY what they had been planning and doing since the aforementioned White Paper had come out and all through the Clinton administration.

Randy
 
I'd love to but unfortunately this was something that was 'coming' since the First Gulf War and most of us who were there KNEW we'd be back in a decade or less depending on the politics :) The "solution" is that Gore wins at which point the Neo-Cons continue to block any possible action on Iraq while continuing to loudly decry the "Democrat lack of action" which they had been doing to the entire Clinton Administration.
Hi, it sounds like you were there, which means active duty military, and thank you for your service.

Okay, during the 1992 campaign, I can remember Gov. Clinton and esp. Senator Gore loudly decrying Bush administration inaction on Bosnia. The Serbian government led by Slobodan Milošević were using “ethnic cleansing” against the Muslim population, including what sure looked like encouraging their own soldiers to commit rape in order to drive Muslim families out of Bosnia.

Do something. As led member of NATO, find a way to do some smart somethings in order to at least slow down the Serbia military units and maybe even stop them in their tracks. The Republicans mentioned “exit strategy,” plus the long-standing Cold War problem that we in the U.S. provide more than our fair share of money and soldiers for NATO. Well, heck of a time for bringing it up.

I say this up because I’m so tired of R’s slamming D’s for being “weak” on the international stage.
 
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Hi, it sounds like you were there, which means active duty military, and thank you for your service.

:)

Okay, during the 1992 campaign, I can remember Gov. Clinton and esp. Senator Gore loudly decrying Bush administration inaction on Bosnia. The Serbian government led by Slobodan Milošević were using “ethnic cleansing” against the Muslim population, including what sure looked like encouraging their own soldiers to commit rape in order to drive Muslim families out of Bosnia.

Do something. As led member of NATO, find a way to do some smart somethings in order to at least slow down the Serbia military units and maybe even stop them in their tracks. The Republicans mentioned “exit strategy,” plus the long-standing Cold War problem that we in the U.S. provide more than our fair share of money and soldiers for NATO. Well, heck of a time for bringing it up.

I say this up because I’m so tired of R’s slamming D’s for being “weak” on the international stage.

It wasn't a priority at the time and the senior Bush was trying to deal with a post-Cold War world so Europe as a whole was a touchy subject. And you'll note that once Clinton and Gore got into office they did "do" something :) Likewise the second Bush Administration was pushing towards war with Iraq, but unlike Clinton there was less Congressional support for doing so and less pubic support. That changed with 9/11.

And one thing you can always count on in politics is "spin" :)


Randy
 

Bush v. Gore was decided by a 5-4 vote, and that’s one reason the Supreme Court lost credibility. In fact, SCOTUS lost quite a bit of credibility due to this decision. Not the country. For those of us who are American citizens, our country is so much bigger, braver, louder, splashier, kinder and more optimistic, than just the government.
There were three questions in Bush v Gore.
1. Equal Protection violation. This was deiced in the affirmative 7-2 (Stevens and Ginsberg JJ dissenting). This was on its own, sufficient to sink the Gore effort.
2. The remedy for the above. Which was decided 5-4 for holding Florida to the 12 December deadline. This was decided 5-4 (Kennedy and Souter JJ, who had joined in the majority in the first question, did not agree with the majority remedy) , essentially gave the electors to Bush and is whats cited as "5-4".
3. Did the Florida state SC violate the law. 3-6, no (Rehnquist CJ and Scalia and Thomas JJ holding it did).
 
1. Equal Protection violation. This was deiced in the affirmative 7-2 (Stevens and Ginsberg JJ dissenting). This was on its own, sufficient to sink the Gore effort.
2. The remedy for the above. Which was decided 5-4 for holding Florida to the 12 December deadline.
Thanks for the above, and I mean this sincerely. I’m trying to get better at understanding overlapping coalitions, which I’m deciding is the adult version of politics.

And I disagree with viewing Dec. 12 as a hard deadline. Okay, you can’t throw together the presidency at the last minute. But use the Jan. 3 date for a new session of Congress. Also use it as a stick— If the state of Florida has not completed ALL steps of a valid recount by Jan. 3, 2001, their delegation of Representatives and Senators does not seat. And they can try again at the next election.

And Jan. 3, 2001, also gives the incoming president more than two full weeks. And I’m assuming President Clinton will have been briefing both Gov. Bush and Vice-President Gore all along, and considerably before this date.

The alternative is for the Supreme Court to lose some degree of credibility, and I consider that an unacceptably high cost.
 
The National Opinion Research Center conducted an analysis and found that only a statewide recount would be sufficient for Gore to win. The Gore team's focused recount in four counties would be insufficient to make up the difference.

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As to your bonus points, The Supreme Court could not rule either things, per se, though they could order that the state cannot submit a certification for the 19th meeting of the Electoral College on December 19 unless they met the order. That's 10 days. If Florida fails to certify the result there's an argument that Congress decides who is President and Vice President (likely Bush and Lieberman). Super Bonus Points cannot happen. As you noted it would likely be Acting President Dennis Hastert which is...not ideal.
 
According to the wikipedia article, had the Supreme Court simply said that the recount can continue, Bush almost certainly still wins. However, had they called for a statewide recount, it's likely Gore would win.

But as you mentioned, there was simply no way the court would have ever called for a statewide recount, (which had already been conducted) and even Gore did not call for that, so realistically I don't think Gore could have won.
Here is what I found (which matches my recollection), this is from PBS (sorry its not letting me paste the link);

"In the first full study of Florida’s ballots since the election ended, The Miami Herald and USA Today reported George W. Bush would have widened his 537-vote victory to a 1,665-vote margin if the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court would have been allowed to continue, using standards that would have allowed even faintly dimpled “undervotes” — ballots the voter has noticeably indented but had not punched all the way through — to be counted."

More succinctly, Bush wins if there's a statewide recount of undervotes as ordered by Florida’s supreme court. Bush also wins after a limited recount of undervotes in the four heavily Democratic counties that Gore requested.

However, in a statewide review of all disputed ballots, (which added into the mix spoiled ballots, double votes, ballots cast by disqualified voters, etc.), and that review applied the most generous standard for divining the voters' intents, Gore could have won. But that review recognized the big problem inherent with a review standard that was too generous- reviewers can score the same ballot differently. There would be other problems as well, namely counting the votes of some persons ineligible to vote
 
They should resolve this in the future by declaring the state a tie and giving 50 percent of the electors to each candidate.
 
They should resolve this in the future by declaring the state a tie and giving 50 percent of the electors to each candidate.
A) 25 is an odd number; I guess we split it 13/12 with the extra elector going to Bush (the initial count winner) ?

B) if we call it a tie and split the electoral votes on all states where the margin of victory was less than 1%, then Bush loses 12 EV from Florida, but picks up 13 EV from Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon and Wisconsin and still wins.
 
A) 25 is an odd number; I guess we split it 13/12 with the extra elector going to Bush (the initial count winner) ?

B) if we call it a tie and split the electoral votes on all states where the margin of victory was less than 1%, then Bush loses 12 EV from Florida, but picks up 13 EV from Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon and Wisconsin and still wins.
I would consider that a fair result.
 
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