Late POD Rescue for the HRE?

Kellan Sullivan

I was curious. Say the French Revolution doesn't happen or doesn't explode as OTL (the why's aren't really important) and Leopold II/Franz II are able to implement their reforms for the Holy Roman Empire. How would it be received?

Among these reforms were:
  • annexation of Bavaria (Austria had 110 000 troops in Bavaria waiting for Karl Theodor's death)
  • restructuring of the electoral college (Prussia, Hannover and Saxony's electoral votes would be removed and the "foreign kings" cut loose from the empire).
  • restructuring of the Reichskirche
  • implementation of a permanent imperial army (rather than the Habsburgs' army with aid from the German princes)

Now, on the one hand, I'm not sure that Prussia, Hannover and Saxony would just be glad to see their electoral votes gone and their influence inside the empire diminished. But at the same time, they'd be independent and they'd still have seats in the Reichstag (just not the vote).

Maximilian Joseph can be "bought off" IMO. OTL, he was no more Bavarian than Karl Theodor- having been born in the Palatinate and raised in France from the age of 9. So he had, essentially, no real connection to the place. However, the terms of Karl Theodor's renunciation put him in a tight spot. Per those terms, Max lost not only Bavaria but also the right to inherit the Austrian Netherlands (and Julich-Berg, per some sources) from his uncle, since they were to pass to Karl Theodor's bastard son, Prince von Bretzenheim.

However, given this is the Habsburgs and they've been doing this for three hundred years and counting already, it wouldn't be beyond their ability to promise Karl Theodor his son would succeed, and then make a side-deal with Max. After all, who's going to back Bretzenheim? The Furstenbund was actively against Karl Theodor's trade-off OTL, although reasons varied. The pro-Prussian side didn't want Austria to get a bigger footprint in Germany, but the general ruling that bothered many was not so much that as what it was that the rightful heir (Max Joseph's brother) was being disinherited by imperial fiat. So, Max Joseph being allowed to follow his uncle in the Netherlands could be a French condition (he was a soldier/general in the French army) to support the idea. In short, Max Joseph gets the Palatinate and "Belgium".

Another Austro-Prussian or Franco-Austrian condition could be the support for Friedrich August of Saxony as candidate for the Polish throne (if the second and third partitions can be stopped). Prussia can be bought off with acknowledging the sale to them of Ansbach and Bayreuth (maybe in exchange for them renouncing Cleves and Ravenstein to Max Joseph).

The candidates for the Austrian replacement electors were Kassel, Württemberg and an undisclosed one for Saxony (although I suspect the duke of Weimar would probably be the most likely candidate).

Would any of these princes accept this situation or would it lead to a war?

@Nuraghe @Vitruvius @isabella @Jürgen @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Fehérvári
 

Oda

“let’s get rid of Prussia Hannover and saxony votes”

What a great way to destroy HRE faster than OTL
 

Zygmunt Stary

Kellan Sullivan said:
Saxony would just be glad to see their electoral votes gone and their influence inside the empire diminished. But at the same time, they'd be independent and they'd still have seats in the Reichstag (just not the vote).
Click to expand...

Well, Saxon pretext for "foreign king" was a bit flimsy, since PLC was elective, so it'd require something like Constitution of 3rd May being successful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_3_May_1791 ) because it made PLC throne hereditary again and ideally, Frederick Augustus I having a son, because the constitution bestowed right to inherit on his daughter if he won't have any son, and his daughter won't inherit Saxony.
 

Oda

Zygmunt Stary said:
Well, Saxon pretext for "foreign king" was a bit flimsy, since PLC was elective, so it'd require something like Constitution of 3rd May being successful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_3_May_1791 ) because it made PLC throne hereditary again and ideally, Frederick Augustus I having a son, because the constitution bestowed right to inherit on his daughter if he won't have any son, and his daughter won't inherit Saxony.
Click to expand...
Not only that but if Fredrick Augustus managed to hold and consolidate Royal power in PLC that would make saxony a viable power to challenge Brandenburg prussia. As long as Austria diplomacy managed to keep the Saxon in their camp that is.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Zygmunt Stary said:
Frederick Augustus I having a son, because the constitution bestowed right to inherit on his daughter if he won't have any son, and his daughter won't inherit Saxony.
Click to expand...
let's assume his wife's pregnancy of 1797 results in a healthy son instead of a stillborn one, or his wife dies and he remarries and successfully has a son who survives infancy.
 

Oda

Kellan Sullivan said:
let's assume his wife's pregnancy of 1797 results in a healthy son instead of a stillborn one, or his wife dies and he remarries and successfully has a son who survives infancy.
Click to expand...
Just gonna get more classical PLC Nobility pushback against saxony than? The real question is can Fredrick crush the Polish nobles and assert his royal power over the commonwealth.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
So this just becomes Greater Austria minus Hanover, Saxony and Prussia?

IMG_0181.jpeg
 

Zygmunt Stary

Oda said:
Just gonna get more classical PLC Nobility pushback against saxony than? The real question is can Fredrick crush the Polish nobles and assert his royal power over the commonwealth.
Click to expand...

No, constution was passed when he wasn't king and tho more problem is with winning war with Russia which invaded PLC right after new constitution was passed and had support from opponents of constitution.
Kellan Sullivan said:
let's assume his wife's pregnancy of 1797 results in a healthy son instead of a stillborn one, or his wife dies and he remarries and successfully has a son who survives infancy.
Click to expand...

Yeah but still that son would have to be king of something in order for "foreign king" pretext to be usable so still it requires at least Constitution being passed succesfully and Russians driven out.
 

Oda

Zygmunt Stary said:
No, constution was passed when he wasn't king and tho more problem is with winning war with Russia which invaded PLC right after new constitution was passed and had support from opponents of constitution.


Yeah but still that son would have to be king of something in order for "foreign king" pretext to be usable so still it requires at least Constitution being passed succesfully and Russians driven out.
Click to expand...
Ah shit my bad I didn’t see the date. Yeah it’s fucking over by than lmao.
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
I was curious. Say the French Revolution doesn't happen or doesn't explode as OTL (the why's aren't really important) and Leopold II/Franz II are able to implement their reforms for the Holy Roman Empire. How would it be received?

Among these reforms were:
  • annexation of Bavaria (Austria had 110 000 troops in Bavaria waiting for Karl Theodor's death)
  • restructuring of the electoral college (Prussia, Hannover and Saxony's electoral votes would be removed and the "foreign kings" cut loose from the empire).
  • restructuring of the Reichskirche
  • implementation of a permanent imperial army (rather than the Habsburgs' army with aid from the German princes)

Now, on the one hand, I'm not sure that Prussia, Hannover and Saxony would just be glad to see their electoral votes gone and their influence inside the empire diminished. But at the same time, they'd be independent and they'd still have seats in the Reichstag (just not the vote).

Maximilian Joseph can be "bought off" IMO. OTL, he was no more Bavarian than Karl Theodor- having been born in the Palatinate and raised in France from the age of 9. So he had, essentially, no real connection to the place. However, the terms of Karl Theodor's renunciation put him in a tight spot. Per those terms, Max lost not only Bavaria but also the right to inherit the Austrian Netherlands (and Julich-Berg, per some sources) from his uncle, since they were to pass to Karl Theodor's bastard son, Prince von Bretzenheim.

However, given this is the Habsburgs and they've been doing this for three hundred years and counting already, it wouldn't be beyond their ability to promise Karl Theodor his son would succeed, and then make a side-deal with Max. After all, who's going to back Bretzenheim? The Furstenbund was actively against Karl Theodor's trade-off OTL, although reasons varied. The pro-Prussian side didn't want Austria to get a bigger footprint in Germany, but the general ruling that bothered many was not so much that as what it was that the rightful heir (Max Joseph's brother) was being disinherited by imperial fiat. So, Max Joseph being allowed to follow his uncle in the Netherlands could be a French condition (he was a soldier/general in the French army) to support the idea. In short, Max Joseph gets the Palatinate and "Belgium".

Another Austro-Prussian or Franco-Austrian condition could be the support for Friedrich August of Saxony as candidate for the Polish throne (if the second and third partitions can be stopped). Prussia can be bought off with acknowledging the sale to them of Ansbach and Bayreuth (maybe in exchange for them renouncing Cleves and Ravenstein to Max Joseph).

The candidates for the Austrian replacement electors were Kassel, Württemberg and an undisclosed one for Saxony (although I suspect the duke of Weimar would probably be the most likely candidate).

Would any of these princes accept this situation or would it lead to a war?

@Nuraghe @Vitruvius @isabella @Jürgen @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Fehérvári
Click to expand...

very complex and delicate scenario, certainly serious reasons would be needed to convince Saxony, Hanover and Prussia to renounce their role as electors, were they elevated in rank in some way or corrupted with concessions of some kind ( I believe that Vienna would also available to those of a territorial nature ) reforming the imperial church would paradoxically be the easiest point of the reform program, because projects in this regard had existed for at least 60 years or more, furthermore it would also simplify the number of ecclesiastical states in the Reich and increase the resources at their disposal ( which would be a plus for the Habsburg government ) certainly there will be negotiations with Rome for this, but nothing too complex, the annexation of Bavaria will be the second most problematic point, but if an agreement is found it should be recognized by the rest of the Reich albeit reluctantly, for the most part it will be a It's a question of balance between the ideas that the Habsburgs have for reform and what they actually manage to achieve, as I believe we will see the possibility of standardizing customs duties among the different states discussed again, requiring voters to be able to have only one to adopt in all their possessions, in particular if contiguous to each other



For the rest, sorry but nothing else comes to mind at the moment
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
suspect that that might be an oversimplification, but essentially yes. AIUI, the Habsburgs would have "more" control over this empire than they did over the larger one.
Click to expand...


wait so you really mean that Vienna makes Prussia, Hanover and Saxony almost independent de jure from the rest of the HRE ?, wouldn't that be something semi-unconstitutional according to Imperial laws, furthermore this wouldn't lead many in London to think about convincing the sovereign to sell Hanover, since they no longer have the "shield" of the Empire in case of aggression, whereas in this case its defense now really depends on the collaboration between the two personal domains of the monarch
 

Kellan Sullivan

@Nuraghe Per Robert's bio of George III,

Frederick wrote a manual for his son in 1749, filled with advice and suggestions for how his son should rule and act. Advice included having a close friend who would always tell him the truth (something George stuck too quite closely later). Avoiding war and gradual repayment of the national debt by keeping public spending within revenues raised by the two shilling (10%) land tax and malt tax. Also suggested breaking personal union between Britain and Hanover by having one of Fred’s brothers or uncles become elector when George became king. Frederick aware that this last point needed an act of parliament and the sanction of the emperor.

this could be the leverage Vienna and London are both looking for, could it not?
 

Evil Crusader

Kellan Sullivan said:
Would any of these princes accept this situation or would it lead to a war?
Click to expand...
It probably needs a master diplomat to stave off British concerns about balance of power, and a very successful coalition War on top.
Even so, the resulting domain quite possibly stretches the Habsburgs too thin and makes them everybody's enemy, essentially replacing Napoleon with the Habsburgs as that timeframe's finall boss fight.
 

Fabius Maximus

Paradoxically, I think the French Revolution might potentially be good for the HRE. If the Emperor doesn't disband it in 1806 and it survives into the post-Napoleonic period, it would be the natural vehicle for German nationalism. Instead of a Prussian-dominated Kleindeutschland, you could end up with a more unified HRE.
 

Vitruvius

I think the short answer to the question 'How would it be received?' is; not well. I think Prussia is still too strong to be pushed around like that. Maybe if Leopold or Franz only target the Electors they can keep the Imperial Knights and lesser princes on their side if they're still nominally protecting or at least not annexing. But even then I'm not sure.

The massive consolidation in favor of the Habsburgs would tip the balance of power too far in their favor for most of the other estates of the Reich to be comfortable with. It was always supposed to be a shared sovereignty, Kaiser and Reich (the corporate body of the estates/princes/lords of the Empire). That's one of the underpinning principles about 'German liberty'. For example, how would the the Princes ever effect an Electoral Capitulation in the future if the Electors are now on average weaker with the removal of Prussia, Saxony and Hanover. This would likely be seen as the Emperor reforming the rump HRE into a hereditary Habsburg protectorate and set off howls of protests across Germany.

Its just a lot all at once, to annex a major German state (Bavaria), to exclude major German states, and to then to restructure the Empire to favor the power of the Emperor. And while confessional politics were not the fault line they were pre-Westphalia I do wonder if the remaining protestants states of the Empire will be up in arms. The Catholic Habsburgs would have just kicked out the most important and powerful Protestant states and presumably newly secularized Bishoprics will just increase the power of Catholic princes in the Empire.
 
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Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
@Nuraghe Per Robert's bio of George III,

Frederick wrote a manual for his son in 1749, filled with advice and suggestions for how his son should rule and act. Advice included having a close friend who would always tell him the truth (something George stuck too quite closely later). Avoiding war and gradual repayment of the national debt by keeping public spending within revenues raised by the two shilling (10%) land tax and malt tax. Also suggested breaking personal union between Britain and Hanover by having one of Fred’s brothers or uncles become elector when George became king. Frederick aware that this last point needed an act of parliament and the sanction of the emperor.

this could be the leverage Vienna and London are both looking for, could it not?
Click to expand...


certainly it can be an idea, but it must be remembered that then he would no longer have any reason to be cut out of the HRE, so Hanover would ask to be reinstated in the imperial institutions, given that it would be left unattended by the breaking of the link with London, becoming dangerously exposed, this development could influence the decisions of the Habsburgs in wanting to continue the process of ousting Hanover from the new Reich, which could be re-evaluated
 
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isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
@Nuraghe Per Robert's bio of George III,
Could become s
Frederick wrote a manual for his son in 1749, filled with advice and suggestions for how his son should rule and act. Advice included having a close friend who would always tell him the truth (something George stuck too quite closely later). Avoiding war and gradual repayment of the national debt by keeping public spending within revenues raised by the two shilling (10%) land tax and malt tax. Also suggested breaking personal union between Britain and Hanover by having one of Fred’s brothers or uncles become elector when George became king. Frederick aware that this last point needed an act of parliament and the sanction of the emperor.

this could be the leverage Vienna and London are both looking for, could it not?
Click to expand...

Nuraghe said:
certainly it can be an idea, but it must be remembered that then he would no longer have any reason to be cut out of the HRE, so Hanover would ask to be reinstated in the imperial institutions, given that it would be left unattended by the breaking of the link with London, becoming dangerously exposed, this development could influence the decisions of the Habsburgs in wanting to continue the process of ousting Hanover from the new Reich, which could be re-evaluated
Click to expand...
Well splitting Hannover from England, suspending Saxony’s electoral vote until it is in union with Poland (I guess who the Elector of Saxony could be replaced as elector by his son, who would agree to not be a candidate for the next election in Poland) depriving Prussia of its Electorate plus annexing Bavaria would be already a great result

The Electoral College could become something like that:

  • Archbishopric of Mainz
  • Archbishopric of Cologne
  • Archbishopric of Trier
  • Kingdom of Bohemia
  • County Palatine of Rhine
  • Duchy of Saxony
  • Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg
  • Landgraviate of Hesse-Kassel
  • Duchy of Württemberg
Kassel and Württemberg would replace Bavaria and Brandenburg as Electorates
 
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