Nothing For Which to Apologize: Ambition and Loathing in the New South

What's the CSA's National Anthem?

  • Dixie

    Votes: 39 48.1%

  • God Save the South

    Votes: 31 38.3%

  • The Bonnie Blue

    Votes: 11 13.6%
  • Total voters
    81
  • Poll closed .
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dcharles

Banned
The Lethargic Lett said:
Speaking of other portrayals of the Confederacy, I can't help but wonder how the CSA and USA will compete in the Caribbean and Central America ITTL, even if the CSA doesn't go full "banana republic." I assume both still claim to be inheritors of the Monroe Doctrine, which would cause plenty of foreign policy complications.
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I'm excited to get into that stuff too. Foreign policy in general, really. With Maximilian in control of Mexico (to the extent that anyone has ever been in "control" of Mexico) and Napoleon III not getting the black eye from the Mexican Expedition, there's knock off effects in Spain, the Dominican Republic, Chile and Cuba. Not to mention the revanchist ambitions of Mexican conservatives in Central America. And that's even not getting into the butterflies in the UK from an earlier (and paradoxically, more conservative) Reform bill.

Whew. I'm getting exhausted just thinking about it.
 

Khan Doomy

That said, I would caution that the fact that the survival of slavery rests on the US closing its borders gives the US government a mighty hand against the CSA when it comes to FP. I would not expect "wise" or "prudent" CSA leaders to go out of their ways to anger their Northen neighbor.
 
A_simple_pilgrim

A_simple_pilgrim

I don't know about that, as there's many millions of black slaves in the south, and I don't think the North, as it has been presented, would accept a large enough number of ex-slaves to be destabilizing for the South. IE it would be mutual suicide with the Northern backlash against blacks equal to the southern backlash against escapees. Just see the guy in Illinois from the last chapter...
 

Khan Doomy

I would not say that. Just the moderate to low numbers of escaped slaves OTL drove some southerners to despondency and support seccesion.
 

245

After reading the new update, I now know what happens to all the remaining slaves in the USA, and it is not pretty. An America which did not make a proclamation of emancipation is undoubtedly not a good place to live.
Also:
dcharleos said:
Tennessee Williams' A Table in the Sun.
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Tennesse William was born in 1911, decades past the POD, his birth should have been wholly butterflied.

Also, what are the Negro Surname Bill and the 15th Amendment?

Also, since contraband is still being used in its original definition ITTL, what word is used in place of OTL modern definition of contraband?
 
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dcharles

Banned
245 said:
Also:

Tennesse William was born in 1911, decades past the POD, his birth should have been wholly butterflied.
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That's not a convention I abide by. The convention makes a certain amount of logical sense, but it undermines my ability to tell the story. So, with human births, my rule is that unless there's a specific reason to butterfly someone away, I don't.

Also, what are the Negro Surname Bill and the 15th Amendment?
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15th amendment is the White Immigration Amendment, the Negro Surname Bill mandates that slaves be given surnames, passed with the goal of greater surveillance and security.
 

Ironshark

is there an also out of universe reason for the surname bill?

that your gonna be introducing OTL black people and want them to have the same names?
 

dcharles

Banned
Ironshark said:
is there an also out of universe reason for the surname bill?

that your gonna be introducing OTL black people and want them to have the same names?
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That's definitely part of it, but also, I think it makes sense, after all the chaos with the Contraband rebellions and the remandment auctions, for the Confederate government to want to know who the people are that live within it's borders.
 

PGSBHurricane

dcharleos said:
15th amendment is the White Immigration Amendment, the Negro Surname Bill mandates that slaves be given surnames, passed with the goal of greater surveillance and security.
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Why do I have a hunch this is going to resemble the White Australia Policy of OTL? I have a gut feeling that many who emigrated to the USA ITTL from southern and eastern Europe won't be let in here. So that's another dark spot for the Union ITTL in addition to the reaction of escaped slaves fleeing to states like Illinois. Seeing the North becoming even more racist than OTL isn't shocking to me but what is it's how well it's written and that's 100% attributed to you. I could not have done better myself.
 
Whiteshore

Whiteshore

PGSBHurricane said:
Why do I have a hunch this is going to resemble the White Australia Policy of OTL? I have a gut feeling that many who emigrated to the USA ITTL from southern and eastern Europe won't be let in here. So that's another dark spot for the Union ITTL in addition to the reaction of escaped slaves fleeing to states like Illinois. Seeing the North becoming even more racist than OTL isn't shocking to me but what is it's how well it's written and that's 100% attributed to you. I could not have done better myself.
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On that note, Argentina and Brazil might do better than OTL, especially as all those Southern European immigrants kicked out of America have to go somewhere. Alternatively, this could be a blessing in disguise for Italy’s development as Italians who IOTL would have emigrated to the United States would be staying home and contributing to their nation’s development instead of migrating to the Americas.
 
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Pax_Nihil

Pax_Nihil

Whiteshore said:
On that note, Argentina and Brazil might do better than OTL, especially as all those Southern European immigrants kicked out of America have to go somewhere. Alternatively, this could be a blessing in disguise for Italy’s development as Italians who IOTL would have emigrated to the United States would be staying home and contributing to their nation’s development instead of migrating to the Americas.
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The Mafia might just make sure it isn't as extricated from southern Italy as it kinda was OTL (KINDA).
 

Khan Doomy

The lack of emigration to the USA might have political butterflies for many European states. It was an escape valve for many inegalitarian social systems, and absent it we might see an accelerated pace of socio-economic conflict and trends like the rise of social democracy etc.
 
Steve Brinson

Steve Brinson

dcharleos said:
Since y'all are getting deep into this, I just want to point that eastern Europeans are still very, very white.
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Yes - at the same time, it does look from Allan Nevins' speech like the United States is substantially more institutionally xenophobic (or, I suppose, possibly just way more antisemitic).
 

PGSBHurricane

dcharleos said:
Since y'all are getting deep into this, I just want to point that eastern Europeans are still very, very white.
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If I recall correctly, it took a while IOTL for people from Mediterranean and Slavic regions to be considered white in the same way those from northern and Western Europe were. I think it wasn’t until after World War 2. So I imagine there’s a clear hierarchy ITTL in terms of which immigrants from Europe would be accepted. It didn’t help that instead of Protestant, most southern and Eastern Europeans were Catholic or Jewish.
 
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