Scandinavian Britain

tormsen

How plausible is it for the Viking invasions to be even more intense than they were in OTL and lead to a more permanent colonisation and conquest of the British Isles by Scandinavians. I'm thinking of increasing cultural and linguistic domination than simple political control.

I'm thinking that Alfred the Great would need to be topped off for the best effect. A disastrous English defeat at Ashdown might do it, killing off the House of Wessex and allowing the further expansion of the Danelaw at the expense of the Anglo-Saxons. Could sufficient numbers of Danish settlers arrive in England to begin to overcrowd the Anglo-Saxons?

Perhaps a union of the Kingdom of Jorvik with Dublin could also strength the Danish position in England. Jorvik was subject to attacks from other Scandinavians in OTL, that could be even more so ITTL. The rest of Scandinavia could also serve as a source of settlers. Danish and Norwegian struggles for control of North Sea trade could provide recurring impetus for colonies and military strongholds in Britain.

Allow some time to pass, and what does Britain look like? What about the linguistic situation, could the Danish tongue absorb Anglo-Saxon? What is the Kingdom of Jorvik's relationship with the Normans going to be like? Friendly or belligerant?
 

arctic warrior

Would really be difficult to get more settlers as the Viking raids was a nobility venture in times with a strong King.
The great migration had been 4-500 years before during the Migrational period.
Even so the Danish/Norse element was of a size for the Dane-murder of 1002 related to have taken one of Svend Forkbeards sisters along angering him much.

You don't need having to top off Alfred, with the deeds of Svend and his son Cnut the Great. BTW Gudrum/Athelstan of East Anglia with a little luck on his part could have taken Alfred off in 878. Perhaps you could have Rollo/Rolf finish him off and stay as a vassal of Gudrum in England instead of going to Franken.

The interesting element would be a lasting Norse Kingdom of England that is able to have the two peoples integrate - like merging Danish and English law, but when? ;)

The Danish Kings of England and the offspring of Rollo doesn't seem to have been too good friends. Would probably make for a Norman go at the throne if given the chance.

If you're having Danish England you probably don't have Norse Jorvik, except if your POD is a nobility conquest of England and not a royal one as OTL.
 

Sgt Detritus

The first AH I ever wrote had a POD where Harald Hardrada of Norway beat Harold II of England at Stamford Bridge, leading to an England divided in two, a Norwegian north and Norman south. Also involved were two Welsh kingdoms, Scotland and a newly independent Strathclyde
 

Tyr

You wouldn't entirely need a massed Viking take over of Britain, the Angles were already Scandinavian. Just remove the Frisian influence (most of the English language being theirs) and knee cap the Saxon's a bit and Bjorn's your uncle.
 

Norman

What if sea trade were more active starting at 500 AD?

What if after the Angles Saxons and Jutes arrived, there was more active commerce throughout the area, with marriages and close 'cultural' contacts between England and Denmark / Scandanavia? The existance of a sort of brighter Dark Age in the North between 500 ad and 870 ad, might cause there to be a more cohesive common culture.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Anglish culture and language was before the Norman conquest Scandinavian*, while the Southen Saxon language and culture was Low German. The best way to keep at least the north Scandinavian would be Harald Hardrada win a victory at Stamford Bridge. A victory over the Normans would also help, but a cease-fire would permanent split Englang in a Saxon-Norman state in the south and a Anglo-Danish state in the north. Without a complete Norman victory the Norman would also have treat the Saxon better and even let more of the old aristocraty stay in power, which would keep some of the French influence at bay, and even create a feedback loop toward Normandy, which could either go Saxon or create a independent Norman Romance language with large Saxon influence

*Thanks to large Danish immigration and other interaction.
 

ledeper

Another P.O.D could be thar Canute he Greats son Hardacnut doesnt die at the wedding of Tovi Prudas daugther(1047).
Personally I have had a OTL like this squirming in my head for the last 6 months.:D:D:)
 

Russell

A while ago I did a timeline based upon the most common premise of Alfreds defeat at Edington. He flees to exile in Europe (rome). All of England save for the Dutchy of Cornwall (a Danelaw Vassal) falls under the Danelaw and Guthrum. However the Danelaw is too week to survive without help so in return for continued control of the the new lands Guthrum allows the Danelaw to become a vassal under the Kingdom of Denmark. Mass imigration from Scandinavia follows. After a few sucessive Danelaw Kings they become ever more bold until it seems as rebellion is likley. However the King of Denmark nips the problem in the bud by staging a political coup, killing the Danlaw rullers and establishing the Kingdom of England with himself on the throne and his brother as regent protector.

At the same time the Norwegians, fearing a totally a British isles totally dominated by the Danes expand out from the Earldom of Orkney, eventually conquoring all of Scotland circa 1050AD. Over time they Expand into Ulster too while a Union of Dublin and England results in a Danish expansion into the rest of Ireland. Eventually a union of Denmark and Norway occurs under Danish influence and the territories in the british Isles are unified into a single Kingdom of Britain (can't remeber the Norse name I used). Eventually around 1350AD there occurs another political union, similar to the Union of Kalmar. However it only lasts around 150 years when circa 1500 there occurs a massive civil war and the union disingtegrates. However, Britain breaks free of Denamrk and establishes itself as an independent "Republic" under a barons council (a council of old "loyal" anglo-Saxon Barons from Alfreds time).
 

rcduggan

Russell said:
A while ago I did a timeline based upon the most common premise of Alfreds defeat at Edington. He flees to exile in Europe (rome). All of England save for the Dutchy of Cornwall (a Danelaw Vassal) falls under the Danelaw and Guthrum. However the Danelaw is too week to survive without help so in return for continued control of the the new lands Guthrum allows the Danelaw to become a vassal under the Kingdom of Denmark. Mass imigration from Scandinavia follows. After a few sucessive Danelaw Kings they become ever more bold until it seems as rebellion is likley. However the King of Denmark nips the problem in the bud by staging a political coup, killing the Danlaw rullers and establishing the Kingdom of England with himself on the throne and his brother as regent protector.

At the same time the Norwegians, fearing a totally a British isles totally dominated by the Danes expand out from the Earldom of Orkney, eventually conquoring all of Scotland circa 1050AD. Over time they Expand into Ulster too while a Union of Dublin and England results in a Danish expansion into the rest of Ireland. Eventually a union of Denmark and Norway occurs under Danish influence and the territories in the british Isles are unified into a single Kingdom of Britain (can't remeber the Norse name I used). Eventually around 1350AD there occurs another political union, similar to the Union of Kalmar. However it only lasts around 150 years when circa 1500 there occurs a massive civil war and the union disingtegrates. However, Britain breaks free of Denamrk and establishes itself as an independent "Republic" under a barons council (a council of old "loyal" anglo-Saxon Barons from Alfreds time).
Click to expand...

Were Britain to become Norse, the center of gravity would most likely shift to Britain (Daneland?), relegating Denmark as a secondary kingdom. It happened in OTL, I think Canute the Great spent most of his time in England, despite having ruled Denmark first. The union would probably take place sooner, and with a unified Norse culture, it would probably last longer than Kalmar did.



Russell said:
(a council of old "loyal" anglo-Saxon Barons from Alfreds time).
Click to expand...
Time traveling noblemen? :eek::D
 

Burton K Wheeler

Moderator
Leej said:
You wouldn't entirely need a massed Viking take over of Britain, the Angles were already Scandinavian. Just remove the Frisian influence (most of the English language being theirs) and knee cap the Saxon's a bit and Bjorn's your uncle.
Click to expand...

I have no idea where you got that from, but it doesn't go with ANYTHING I've ever heard about the Anglo-Saxons. Do you mind providing a source?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Both the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, and the Danes lived in the border area between West Germanic (Angles, Saxons (and Jutes?)) and North Germanic (Danes) and was more or less mutually intelligible, the Danish invasion more or less tipped the Angles over to the North Germanic dialect continuum.
 
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NCW

Valdemar II said:
Anglish culture and language was before the Norman conquest Scandinavian*, while the Southen Saxon language and culture was Low German. The best way to keep at least the north Scandinavian would be Harald Hardrada win a victory at Stamford Bridge. A victory over the Normans would also help, but a cease-fire would permanent split Englang in a Saxon-Norman state in the south and a Anglo-Danish state in the north. Without a complete Norman victory the Norman would also have treat the Saxon better and even let more of the old aristocraty stay in power, which would keep some of the French influence at bay, and even create a feedback loop toward Normandy, which could either go Saxon or create a independent Norman Romance language with large Saxon influence.
Click to expand...

One way to achieve this would be to have William invade when he intended to - in OTL William set sail on 12 September 1066, but his fleet was caught in a storm. He lost a few ships and had to gather his fleet at St Valery-sur-Somme. If the storm hadn't occured, he would have landed earlier (and probably somewhere to the west of Hastings). Harold would have met him there and probably defeated him, since his army hasn't just had a march to the north of England and back.

Then news arrives of Harald Hardraada landing in the north and Harold sets out with his army (who are obviously not as strong as in OTL since they've just been in a battle against the Normans). This gives Hardraada a better chance of winning than in OTL. Result - a stronger Viking presence in the north and a saxon kingdom remaining in the south.

Cheers,
Nigel.
 

Burton K Wheeler

Moderator
Valdemar II said:
Both the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, and the Danes lived in the border area between West Germanic (Angles, Saxons (and Jutes?)) and North Germanic (Danes) and was more or less mutually intelligible, the Danish invasion more or less tipped the Angles over to the North dialect continuum.
Click to expand...

I understand that, and I understand that Frisian was part of the same dialect continuum (not a direct ancestor of English). That runs directly counter to the nonsense about the Angles "being Scandinavian", though.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Bald Imposter said:
I understand that, and I understand that Frisian was part of the same dialect continuum (not a direct ancestor of English). That runs directly counter to the nonsense about the Angles "being Scandinavian", though.
Click to expand...

Ah no, the Angles were West Germanic when they invade/settled Britain, but they became Scandinavian speakers when the Danes conquered them*

*Of course was their languages truely Anglish then or a Hybrid between Danish and Anglish?
 

Tyr

The Bald Imposter said:
I have no idea where you got that from, but it doesn't go with ANYTHING I've ever heard about the Anglo-Saxons. Do you mind providing a source?
Click to expand...

Its pretty widely known that the Angles came from Schleswig; much of which is in Denmark even today. i.e. Scandinavia. Strictly talking of historic regions the whole lot of it is in Scandinavia.
 
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