I thought you were referring to the year of OTL that Utah became a state....
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
I think its amazing what some of us readers suggest, than you go - "I like that idea.".
Not many authors are willing to listen to suggestion and incorporate them like you seem to have.
I see that the postwar situation in North America is turning out rather nicely, isn’t it? And I look forward to seeing what you have in store for Europe too.
It's interesting - Forrest II is showing the right amount of charisma, talent, dedication to a cause and self-promotion to become a very real romantic revolutionary.
The problem, of course, is that the cause he is fighting for is just so utterly reprehensible.
Assuming he survives (which is by no way certain, not even likely) I wonder what he'll do following the eventual ending of the Yankee occupation. Political office isn't out of the question (possibly he tries to become the first grandson of a CS President to ascend to the same office), but I could also see him staying in the army and potentially helping set up a freicorp type scenario - potentially in Brazil (considering Mexico is going to want to stay on the US's good side, and has some bad memories of Forrest Sr galvanting around the North, i suspect they're off the table).
Of course, if Forrest II manages to gain the Presidency it's going to be during the Bourbon Restoration and pre-Long, so one has to assume his term would be less than glorious. Though the thought of Forrest paramilitaries battling it out with Longites IS pretty epic to consider
. I wonder if he'd resurrect his Grandpa's KKK organization *shudders*
The problem, of course, is that the cause he is fighting for is just so utterly reprehensible.
Assuming he survives (which is by no way certain, not even likely) I wonder what he'll do following the eventual ending of the Yankee occupation. Political office isn't out of the question (possibly he tries to become the first grandson of a CS President to ascend to the same office), but I could also see him staying in the army and potentially helping set up a freicorp type scenario - potentially in Brazil (considering Mexico is going to want to stay on the US's good side, and has some bad memories of Forrest Sr galvanting around the North, i suspect they're off the table).
Of course, if Forrest II manages to gain the Presidency it's going to be during the Bourbon Restoration and pre-Long, so one has to assume his term would be less than glorious. Though the thought of Forrest paramilitaries battling it out with Longites IS pretty epic to consider
. I wonder if he'd resurrect his Grandpa's KKK organization *shudders*Did the KKK die out ITTL?It's interesting - Forrest II is showing the right amount of charisma, talent, dedication to a cause and self-promotion to become a very real romantic revolutionary.
The problem, of course, is that the cause he is fighting for is just so utterly reprehensible.
Assuming he survives (which is by no way certain, not even likely) I wonder what he'll do following the eventual ending of the Yankee occupation. Political office isn't out of the question (possibly he tries to become the first grandson of a CS President to ascend to the same office), but I could also see him staying in the army and potentially helping set up a freicorp type scenario - potentially in Brazil (considering Mexico is going to want to stay on the US's good side, and has some bad memories of Forrest Sr galvanting around the North, i suspect they're off the table).
Of course, if Forrest II manages to gain the Presidency it's going to be during the Bourbon Restoration and pre-Long, so one has to assume his term would be less than glorious. Though the thought of Forrest paramilitaries battling it out with Longites IS pretty epic to consider
I don't think it ever existed, though plenty of paramilitaries showed up that are similar.
Nathan Bedford Forrest still created them- or a proto-clan. Problem is he died, and Isham Harris inherited the establishment to gain the Presidency but they were all corrupt, and didn't expand and lacked proper leadership.
Thus Longstreet was able to exploit that.
It died out after losing the election if 1879
Thus Longstreet was able to exploit that.
It died out after losing the election if 1879
Go back and reread the whole thing from the first thread.
It's far more epic in scope when reread whole...
Good question. I'd assume that means territorial voters can vote for President, just not be represented in Congress (sort of like PR in primaries), but somebody better versed on constitutional matters could chime in here.
And yes, Utah is going to be admitted in the early 1920s, perhaps even in time for the election.
Is it a commonly known fact that Utah became a state in 1920? Am I just oddly caught up in the moment being surprised that I hadn't accumulated that data already?
I have never been made aware of that before and it really, really blows my mind (Nevada was a state 47 years before Utah? Holy crap! Just because of the Mormons? Some other reason?? Time for my reading list to grow like usual
The men who ran the Liberal Party ITTL, starting with Blaine and Garfield, were among the most hostile enemies of the Mormon Church IOTL, and the Mormon Wars of the 1890s did not help. So one of the provisions in 1900 when the war ended was Utah has to wait twenty years to apply for statehood - the idea being that hopefully more non-Mormons would move there in the interim, but this semi-colonial attitude just helped sparked a third round in 1913-present when the GAW triggered, this time with the LDS Church itself suffering a small but notable schism over polygamy much much larger than OTL's FLDS break-off.
Thank you! I'm always happy to. The patrons of this TL are the reason I still write it, otherwise I'd probably have gotten exhausted years ago. Always happy to give back what you all give me
Thank you!
I'm not bringing back Forrest I's Kuklos Klan, for whatever it's worth - I want to not get into the Second Klan/Third Klan bit of OTL. One was enough.It's interesting - Forrest II is showing the right amount of charisma, talent, dedication to a cause and self-promotion to become a very real romantic revolutionary.
The problem, of course, is that the cause he is fighting for is just so utterly reprehensible.
Assuming he survives (which is by no way certain, not even likely) I wonder what he'll do following the eventual ending of the Yankee occupation. Political office isn't out of the question (possibly he tries to become the first grandson of a CS President to ascend to the same office), but I could also see him staying in the army and potentially helping set up a freicorp type scenario - potentially in Brazil (considering Mexico is going to want to stay on the US's good side, and has some bad memories of Forrest Sr galvanting around the North, i suspect they're off the table).
Of course, if Forrest II manages to gain the Presidency it's going to be during the Bourbon Restoration and pre-Long, so one has to assume his term would be less than glorious. Though the thought of Forrest paramilitaries battling it out with Longites IS pretty epic to consider
The NRO (formally) and Hillboys (informally) sort of fit that niche, anyways.
Thank you!
Speaking of, and there'll be more info on this in the New Year, but I've been compiling the TL in Word docs to start potentially self-publishing them on Amazon. More to come on this, but considering just how long Parts I-III wound up being, it's probably going to be multiple novel-length entries. This TL is simply that long.
Second Wave: The Postwar Progressive Revolution of 1917-31
"...curious dichotomies that were found mostly only out West.
Hiram Johnson was a nakedly partisan Liberal, a convert to populist Sinophobia not just out of convenience but in time sincere racial conviction, and in Congress a staunch isolationist who clashed with the increasingly internationalist point of view of his party's "Eastern Establishment" concentrated in New England and New York. As Governor of California, however, he had been a trailblazing progressive, working with the Democratic majorities as well as Socialist and left-Liberal legislators to pass a raft of reforms including the most expansive open records "sunshine" laws in the country (and, at the time, the world), devolving the rights of both initiative and referendum to the public, [1] transforming California's state bureaucracy to be a much leaner, professional machine, and had tightened Prohibition laws and prosecuted public corruption while greatly curbing the powers of the Central Pacific Railroad, at the time almost a fourth branch of California's government, through forming a railroad commission before the railroads were nationalized by the Hughes administration in the winter of 1914. He had pursued a clean government underpinned by direct democracy and the war had greatly burgeoned California's industrial economy, with nitrate production in Oakland, shipbuilding in the San Francisco Bay and Long Beach, and oil production in Los Angeles becoming key staples of the war effort, with tens of thousands flocking to the Golden State for this new economy. [2]
Johnson's election to the Senate in 1916, to take office in March of 1917, and would be replaced by William Stephens, a former Congressman and moderate progressive who while a reformer was certainly to Johnson's right. While Stephens would pursue a number of important reforms, most prominently in the advocacy for returning veterans from the war and establishing a bureau and unemployment fund for veterans in California, left-wing leaders in California suspected that he would not prove as able or willing an ally as Johnson. As such, for a group of progressive Democrats and Socialists who had formed a fine working relationship with Johnson on a case-by-case basis decided to proceed with a project they had been completing as 1916 turned to 1917, sending to his desk a constitutional amendment to write into the California constitution "a right to medical care." Johnson, a known supporter of such a provision, signed the bill - it was his second-to-last official act as Governor, as he moved the paper to the side to sign his resignation letter a moment later. The healthcare debate had arrived in American politics.
Medical insurance, as it is today, was a complicated issue in the 1910s, made more complex by the needs of an industrial society and the dangers of both war and modern work. As such, there had been a shortage of doctors and nurses in California, and hospitals and clinics had become exponentially more expensive over the prior several years, and suddenly the idea of healthcare as a social right moved to the forefront. These were not new ideas - in European, early welfarism had explored with similar prospects, and unemployment or accident and injury insurance could be considered a version of such thinking - but even William Randolph Hearst had never proposed going as far as what California was now placing on the ballot. This was a radical step in the direction of socialized medicine.
It was also one which, perhaps, came a bit before its time was ready, and which triggered a predictable backlash from the state's powerful insurance lobby. As it had passed the legislature by simple majority in consecutive sittings, it required a public vote of approval under the laws Johnson had seen passed, and it would go to referendum in June of 1917. Johnson was the most public champion of the amendment, however; Stephens was ambivalent, as was Senator James Phelan, both of whom worried that Chinese immigrants would be given free medical care if the amendment would be passed at taxpayer expense. More conservative Liberals swung behind the opposition, most prominently San Francisco's powerful and influential Julius Kahn, otherwise a close ally of Johnson. As such, the campaign against quickly overwhelmed the proponents, especially with Johnson in Philadelphia for the first sessions of the 65th Congress and thus unable to return to California to campaign on its behalf. A vicious fear campaign demagoguing the amendment saw it defeated, 57-43, [3] and Stephens would never try to pass a reform nearly so ambitious before his defeat in 1918 by Democrat Theodore Bell.
Pandora's Box had been opened, however. Democrats in other states now could look to smaller reforms that would bring them closer to the goal of healthcare as a right, and social reformers such as Richard Ely, who had the ear of progressive Liberals, spoke in favor of such movements. The California amendment had been handicapped by vague language - what exactly did it mean for healthcare to be a right, anyways? - that future reformers could avoid, and the economic malaise of the postwar depression years and critical needs of shell-shocked, wounded veterans would continue building the push towards additional measures to bring quality care to all Americans over the next several decades. The unlikely coalition in California may have failed, but the movement had begun..."
- Second Wave: The Postwar Progressive Revolution of 1917-31
[1] By fiat, I elected not to include recall here, because I think the ease of recall elections in California are, well... silly.
[2] Including obviously from overseas
[3] So this is more or less true to OTL - Johnson did sign this amendment on his last day before heading to DC to be sworn in as Senator. In OTL, though, this was beaten 70-30. Upon discovering this in my research on Johnson I decided it warranted a mention as a subtle kickoff to the "Second Wave" progressivism that will really start cranking into gear in the early 1920s.
Hiram Johnson was a nakedly partisan Liberal, a convert to populist Sinophobia not just out of convenience but in time sincere racial conviction, and in Congress a staunch isolationist who clashed with the increasingly internationalist point of view of his party's "Eastern Establishment" concentrated in New England and New York. As Governor of California, however, he had been a trailblazing progressive, working with the Democratic majorities as well as Socialist and left-Liberal legislators to pass a raft of reforms including the most expansive open records "sunshine" laws in the country (and, at the time, the world), devolving the rights of both initiative and referendum to the public, [1] transforming California's state bureaucracy to be a much leaner, professional machine, and had tightened Prohibition laws and prosecuted public corruption while greatly curbing the powers of the Central Pacific Railroad, at the time almost a fourth branch of California's government, through forming a railroad commission before the railroads were nationalized by the Hughes administration in the winter of 1914. He had pursued a clean government underpinned by direct democracy and the war had greatly burgeoned California's industrial economy, with nitrate production in Oakland, shipbuilding in the San Francisco Bay and Long Beach, and oil production in Los Angeles becoming key staples of the war effort, with tens of thousands flocking to the Golden State for this new economy. [2]
Johnson's election to the Senate in 1916, to take office in March of 1917, and would be replaced by William Stephens, a former Congressman and moderate progressive who while a reformer was certainly to Johnson's right. While Stephens would pursue a number of important reforms, most prominently in the advocacy for returning veterans from the war and establishing a bureau and unemployment fund for veterans in California, left-wing leaders in California suspected that he would not prove as able or willing an ally as Johnson. As such, for a group of progressive Democrats and Socialists who had formed a fine working relationship with Johnson on a case-by-case basis decided to proceed with a project they had been completing as 1916 turned to 1917, sending to his desk a constitutional amendment to write into the California constitution "a right to medical care." Johnson, a known supporter of such a provision, signed the bill - it was his second-to-last official act as Governor, as he moved the paper to the side to sign his resignation letter a moment later. The healthcare debate had arrived in American politics.
Medical insurance, as it is today, was a complicated issue in the 1910s, made more complex by the needs of an industrial society and the dangers of both war and modern work. As such, there had been a shortage of doctors and nurses in California, and hospitals and clinics had become exponentially more expensive over the prior several years, and suddenly the idea of healthcare as a social right moved to the forefront. These were not new ideas - in European, early welfarism had explored with similar prospects, and unemployment or accident and injury insurance could be considered a version of such thinking - but even William Randolph Hearst had never proposed going as far as what California was now placing on the ballot. This was a radical step in the direction of socialized medicine.
It was also one which, perhaps, came a bit before its time was ready, and which triggered a predictable backlash from the state's powerful insurance lobby. As it had passed the legislature by simple majority in consecutive sittings, it required a public vote of approval under the laws Johnson had seen passed, and it would go to referendum in June of 1917. Johnson was the most public champion of the amendment, however; Stephens was ambivalent, as was Senator James Phelan, both of whom worried that Chinese immigrants would be given free medical care if the amendment would be passed at taxpayer expense. More conservative Liberals swung behind the opposition, most prominently San Francisco's powerful and influential Julius Kahn, otherwise a close ally of Johnson. As such, the campaign against quickly overwhelmed the proponents, especially with Johnson in Philadelphia for the first sessions of the 65th Congress and thus unable to return to California to campaign on its behalf. A vicious fear campaign demagoguing the amendment saw it defeated, 57-43, [3] and Stephens would never try to pass a reform nearly so ambitious before his defeat in 1918 by Democrat Theodore Bell.
Pandora's Box had been opened, however. Democrats in other states now could look to smaller reforms that would bring them closer to the goal of healthcare as a right, and social reformers such as Richard Ely, who had the ear of progressive Liberals, spoke in favor of such movements. The California amendment had been handicapped by vague language - what exactly did it mean for healthcare to be a right, anyways? - that future reformers could avoid, and the economic malaise of the postwar depression years and critical needs of shell-shocked, wounded veterans would continue building the push towards additional measures to bring quality care to all Americans over the next several decades. The unlikely coalition in California may have failed, but the movement had begun..."
- Second Wave: The Postwar Progressive Revolution of 1917-31
[1] By fiat, I elected not to include recall here, because I think the ease of recall elections in California are, well... silly.
[2] Including obviously from overseas
[3] So this is more or less true to OTL - Johnson did sign this amendment on his last day before heading to DC to be sworn in as Senator. In OTL, though, this was beaten 70-30. Upon discovering this in my research on Johnson I decided it warranted a mention as a subtle kickoff to the "Second Wave" progressivism that will really start cranking into gear in the early 1920s.
(I hope this post is not current politics, though given that there are, probably, President Schweggener TLs in this side of the forum, I find it highly unlikely, though I am ready to delete it if it is)
And, they are also (from what I understand) extremely easy to enter as a candidate, even easier than to enter a state presidential primaries.
In 2003 (I think was the date of it), the candidates I read in that recall included a comedian, an adult movie star, an adult movie maker, dozens of third parties with flavours ranging from George Wallace’s personal electoral vehicle turned into a morbid creature with members mainly joining due to mistakes to dozens of infighting leftist parties.
I can not say that I am happy that they are gone as an outsider who read those events with a laughter in my face and a popcorn in my hand (trying not to thinking about my country’s political shenanigans), but probably Californians are better off than our timeline with it.
Also, healthcare enters into debate much earlier than our timeline, it seems like. I feel like if the amendment had a sentence preventing Chinese to get any healthcare, it would have been accepted in a narrow victory, which is surprising that Californian legislators, who seems to be extremely hateful of Chinese immigrants with a massive passion.
But it is for the better anyways. Better a failure to be a martyr for your movement than a success that would shame next generations.
Love this sort of state-level nitty-grittyness, good stuff.
I can see some sort of public option being a thing in these United States but it looks like that's as good as progressives are going to get ITTL apparently.
You’re fine haha, the absurdly low barrier to entry is what I find silly about CA’s recall provisions as opposed to other states
Healthcare will include and go beyond a public option, it just won’t be a UK style NHS and it’s quality will vary from state to state (I’m drawing inspiration a bit from Canada and Germany alike here)
Be a bit of editing to do, I'd think.
IIRC, so of your earlier posts about Blaine gave him surviving past his Presidency
There’s been a whole bit of editing I’ve been doing on that, some earlier posts needed some light retcons