That Golden Dawn Sky Tl-191's history of US & CS aircraft

[pattontank12]

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This thread will be dedicated to the history of the development of Union and Confederate aircraft technology.

To start of considering the restructuring of the United States military in the years immediately after the Second Mexican War along the lines more successful Prussian model, along the heavy cooperation between the United States and American Empire chances are the two powers actually cooperated extensively in the development of aircraft technology. First in the form of Zeppelin technology, with Count Ferdinand Von Zeppelin using American Helium in his airship technology. Possibly followed by the Wright Brothers exchanging notes with their German idol Otto Lilienthal and maybe later Anthony Vokker.

Actually airships could have been used extensively during the First Great War. Being used to scout and carrying troops across the relatively scarcely populated western fronts of the Canadian and Confederate theaters. Along with bombing under defended cities, especially during the Second Mormon Rebellion.

 

[Alterwright]

So would this be more about design philosophy or more about how each country would choose certain traits or features in planes?

I don't know why, but I always figured that Confederates would develop planes that are rugged, durable, have good firepower, and depending on the model could fit multiple roles based on the mission. This is because I assume that the Confederates would be outnumbered, always trying to get more bang for their buck, so to speak.

For the United States, it would be quantity, simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability. Its planes would be more numerous in the air compared to the Confederates, have excellent engines, are easy to produce and repair, but lack in the firepower department somewhat. They would however have planes that can more easily fit specific roles without having to rely on one plane to fulfill multiple roles.

 

[Historyman 14]

So would this be more about design philosophy or more about how each country would choose certain traits or features in planes?

I don't know why, but I always figured that Confederates would develop planes that are rugged, durable, have good firepower, and depending on the model could fit multiple roles based on the mission. This is because I assume that the Confederates would be outnumbered, always trying to get more bang for their buck, so to speak.

For the United States, it would be quantity, simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability. Its planes would be more numerous in the air compared to the Confederates, have excellent engines, are easy to produce and repair, but lack in the firepower department somewhat. They would however have planes that can more easily fit specific roles without having to rely on one plane to fulfill multiple roles.

This I think been mention before, but I think that is the contrast between North and South. The Confederacy knows it can never match up to the North in population and industry, and so they go and try to make the best of everything in the attempt to outmatch the Yankees there. (Which was kinda the same in OTL they made an lot of innovations themselves to the Hunley and the CSS Virginia to make for they smaller state. Pay no mind to the USS Alligator.)

The North meanwhile, is the Industrial titan with an far larger population, so I can see that they would value quantity. Not to say the Union's planes won't be good, they would, but your point still stands.

Its can be sum up to 'Reliable Reb vs Mighty Yankee' type deal.

 

[Historyman 14]

Here are some hypothetical airships that saw action in North America during the First Great War:

American Airship travelling from New York City to the Confederate front.

Inside the gondola of an American Airship with American soldiers looking out for Confederate Aircraft.

Crater from an airship attack in Richmond, ca. 1916

Bombing of Louisville ca. late 1914-early 1915

 

[pattontank12]

This I think been mention before, but I think that is the contrast between North and South. The Confederacy knows it can never match up to the North in population and industry, and so they go and try to make the best of everything in the attempt to outmatch the Yankees there. (Which was kinda the same in OTL they made an lot of innovations themselves to the Hunley and the CSS Virginia to make for they smaller state. Pay no mind to the USS Alligator.)

The North meanwhile, is the Industrial titan with an far larger population, so I can see that they would value quantity. Not to say the Union's planes won't be good, they would, but your point still stands.

Its can be sum up to 'Reliable Reb vs Mighty Yankee' type deal.

I kinda see the Confederacy lagging behind the United States in the aviation field during the earlier parts of the First Great War. That's not say they wouldn't have some good or even great planes during that era, they would but it wouldn't be until later in the war that they would finally be able to catch up with the Yankees.

Of course things were sorta flipped around with Featherstone and the Confederate Citrus Fruit Company seriously pushing aviation technology in various minor conflicts like the Mexican Civil War. With the Confederacy having the edge in aircraft technology during the outbreak of the Second Great War. Of course by 1944 and the Union's introduction of fighter jets things had seriously turned around for the Confederate Air Corps.

 

[Tiro]

I've actually done a fair bit of noodling when it comes to the Air Wars in North America, so I shall post what has occurred to me here - if some of you have seen this before, then please pardon my repeating myself!


CONFEDERATE STATES AIR SERVICE -

- One imagines that there would be a strong French influence on Confederate Aviation prior to the Great War; given the Wright Brothers are Northerners, it's not impossible that the Southern Board of Education might prefer to place emphasis on the pioneering work of Clément Ader instead of those "Damn Yankees" (though "Johnny on the Street" might well be just a little proud to know that an American made the first powered flight, even if it were the Wrong Sort of American!). It therefore seems highly likely that the first aircraft in Confederate service would be of French design and construction.


- As a rule of thumb I tend to assume that if Russia received a certain type of aircraft from their Western allies then the Confederate States would have been able to fly it too (although one also imagines that the South - being all the way across the Atlantic - would have been more likely received somewhat fewer airplanes and been obliged to alter those designs they did receive to suit local manufacturing capacity & maintenance ability).


- I keep going back and forth on just what to call the Southern equivalent to the US Army Air Corps, mostly because I don't really want to use exactly the same name for the Northern & Southern air arm (one tends to imagine that if the North goes one way, the South will go another) but partly because I tend to assume that the Confederate air service went through a number of permutations, having presumably been launched just before the First Great War and been obliged to assemble its portfolio "on the fly" under wartime conditions. Given the "States Rights" philosophy of the Confederate States of America, one wouldn't be surprised if the individual States didn't make some effort to put together some sort of aviation element as part of their State Militia (especially West of the Mississippi, a long way down on Richmond's list of priorities).

I'd assume that the Confederates might well create an Independent Air Force, to help centralise command & control of disparate warplanes and put an end to slanging matches between the Navy & the Army over who should be managing these new-fangled contraptions (though probably not arguments between the States, alas); since the Confederacy would have far fewer airplanes than the United States, they would either have to compensate by using them more cleverly or accept that their aviators would be whipped from pillar to post (ceding the skies as they would almost certainly have to cede the open sea to the British & the Americans).


- This Independant Air Service would almost certainly be created later in the War (1916/1917?) and would certainly be dissolved after the Armistice (though one imagines that its more enterprising officers & personnel were kept busy between the Wars by those elements within the Confederate Military-Industrial complex quietly preparing for the NEXT War, referred to as the "Black Staff" in FILLING THE GAPS), which might see the name of that service die with it - assuming that the Freedom Party might very well prefer a bit of rebranding, rather than follow the pattern set by their unloved Whig predecessors.

For the record I tend to think of the CS Military Aviators as the "Confederate States Air Army" or the "Air Army of the Confederate States" to help separate it from the United States Army Air Corps, as well as due to my suspicion that (since the Army of the Confederate States is being led by Nathan Bedford Forrest III, who was Air Force in Our Own History) the Confederate States air service would be very closely wedded to the Army during the Second Great War but am happy to accept other suggestions.


- I actually threw together an article on Claire Lee Chennault that dealt in passing with the CS Air Force between the Great Wars, which you can find at the other end of this link: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tl-191-filling-the-gaps.148857/page-115#post-12678420


- One imagines that, during the First Great War, the Confederate air service would have contained a strong cavalry element (with the blue bloods likely to crop up in the ranks of l'arme blanche also filling cockpits) with a certain amount of cavalry panache & dandy manners becoming part of the Southern military aviator; this blue bloodedness is unlikely to persist between the Great Wars, with the "Confederate Citrus Company" and Mercenary Work in Mexico being somewhat beneath the dignity of the "Planter Patricians" previously inclined to serve the South up in the air.

My guess is that the Second Great War air service had much more informal, devoutly improvisational and generally roughneck service - not least because those are the sort of individuals Featherston is more likely to trust with the command & control of such a prestigious branch of the Confederate military; given the number of Stalwarts caught up in the Mexican Civil War as volunteers & advisors, it seems far from unlikely that there would be a number of enthusiasts for the Freedom Party or the Redemption League amongst the leadership cadre assembled for the new Confederate Air Army (if I remember correctly Florida was also a fairly solid Stalwart state, as well as a hub of Confederate aviation, which is another strong argument for the Southern air arm having a decidedly pro-Featherston edge).


- One can imagine The Snake remarking that he had "A Stalwart Air Force, a Whig Army and a Radical Liberal Navy" (on the understanding that since the Confederate Army is likely to have been solidly Whig, for obvious reasons, the much less prestigious Navy is likely to have been the only real opportunity for Radical Liberals to climb the ladder - especially given that Cuba & Sonora would have been host to significant Naval bases and the Rad Libs find a significant portion of their support in the Spanish Confederacy).

 

[Tiro]

Please pardon the somewhat disorganised nature of the rambles above; I'll try to do better in future posts!

 

[Tiro]

I don't know why, but I always figured that Confederates would develop planes that are rugged, durable, have good firepower, and depending on the model could fit multiple roles based on the mission. This is because I assume that the Confederates would be outnumbered, always trying to get more bang for their buck, so to speak.

I definitely agree - one suspects that "Keep it Simple, Stupid" and "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" would be the keystone principles of the Southern Air Industry (especially between the Great Wars) for the simple reason that while the CSA is likely enthusiastic about the prospect of acquiring a powerful air arm it would have trouble developing the Industrial capacity to build one even after it became possible for the South to openly build up an Air Force without risking the United States falling on it like a tonne of bricks (if only because the Army & the Navy will be competing for funding, which might see the Air Force throw in with the Army to ensure the best possible chance of receiving funding & support).


I do think that, while the Confederate air service would boast a number of good designs (such as the Hound Dog), it would suffer even at the start of the Second Great War from the bottlenecks imposed by drawing on a relatively small pool of designers & manufacturers, as well as close & unfriendly scrutiny from the US requiring that designs be put together in secrecy and on a relative shoestring budget.

For example, it seems highly likely that quite a few Confederate designs would have to be civilian conversions - the only way to build up any serious manufacturing capacity prior to the relaxation of Northern inspections would be to start building civilian aircraft en mass - which would likely result in some unhappy comprises between Military necessity and the original civilian designs (which might bite especially deep when it comes to bombers and other multi-engine designs, which would be harder to "hush up" and far, far more alarming to the United States*).

*Given that while a fighter MIGHT be built purely for Air Defence purposes, a Bomber is ALWAYS built to hit the enemy and wreck enormous collateral damage in the process.


I can imagine the Confederate States of America, building up towards the Second Great War, being very keen to acquire good designs wherever they can find them (since this provides them with a proven quantity and spares Southerners the expense of a long design process), with Featherston's Confederacy almost certainly building at least a few of their better designs under license rather than focussing purely on their own designs. It also seems highly possible that the Confederates would settle for "Good Enough" designs they can build NOW rather than obsess over getting things absolutely Perfect just in time for the Yankees to swarm them in the meantime.

 

[Tiro]

For the United States, it would be quantity, simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability. Its planes would be more numerous in the air compared to the Confederates, have excellent engines, are easy to produce and repair, but lack in the firepower department somewhat. They would however have planes that can more easily fit specific roles without having to rely on one plane to fulfill multiple roles.

I entirely agree with this - one would also like to suggest that aircraft production in the North might well be less centralised than would be the case Down South (the Confederate Government, obliged to develop its aircraft on a "Black Ops" basis and build an entire Air Force in a hurry, would naturally play a greater role in the process than the United States - not least because the South lacks the multitude of corporations hungry for their next contract available to a Yankee Administration).

 

[Tiro]

I wonder if the United States Army Air Corps and the CS Air Army would wear basic army uniforms with slightly different insignia - as per Our Own History - or if they might have been able to develop uniforms all their own?

 

[Sierra]

I think, personally, that the Confederates would wear a pale blue-grey. It is not only tied to their military tradition, but also the color that the RAF choose when it was formed, before later moving to a darker blue. THe US uniform depends greatly on whether an independant air force is established, or it remains under Army direction. If the former, probably a darker blue uniform.

 

[Sierra]

For a start, i'm curious as to what the Confederate aviation industry my look like. Howard Hughes is a potential leader in this in the interwar period. He was a Texan, though his parents were from Missouri. Considering the mental gymnastics involving Patton's birth, this can perhaps be overlooked. Hughes personality certainly seems the type who might be associated with the outer fringes of the Freedom Party, where those who are in it more for the modernity than the racist core ideals can be found. Its also possible that YOu might see some branches of British aviation companies are set up in the South.

Also, it seems likely that the officers of the future Confederate Air Army might receive training in the UK, or possibly in South Africa or Australia, similarly to the Reichswehr cooperation with the Soviet Union in developing aircraft and tanks.

 

[pattontank12]

I do picture the Union Air Force to be centered primarily around keeping the new territories in line, during the interwar years. Having airships and fighter planes floating overhead across Canada and Utah has a constant reminder that they'll be bombed to smithereens in a flash if they get uppity. With the Union adopting a doctrine of "speed, firepower and efficiency" when designing aircraft.

 

[pattontank12]

I'm wondering if Union aircraft would in general have a longer operational range compared to their Confederate counterparts, especially considering the size of their territory.

 

[Tiro]

I'd imagine that North American aircraft would have to be built to cover long distances and land on pretty rudimentary airfields - North America is MUCH larger than Western Europe and rather less intensively developed, so I suspect that active operations over such an area would have some impact on both Northern & Southern designs. In some ways you can argue that 20th Century Wars across Timeline-191 North America is best thought of as an odd hybrid between the tech level of the Western Front & an Area of Operations more like the Eastern Front - and I'm most certainly not the first to note that this would be the case.

I'd imagine that airborne reconnaissance, air transport, ground attack aircraft and bombers would therefore play a very valuable role allowing all sides to cover more ground with fewer men - I'd imagine that the US Army Air Corps played a key role in helping the US hold down Canada between the wars - in fact I would guess that the sheer scale of Canada, coupled with US experience during the Pacific War, would probably place a powerful emphasis on the Strategic role of the air arm (which would, of course, shape Northern doctrine).

One idea that occurs to me is that the Northern Army Air Corps conducts offensives on its own initiative rather more often than its Southern counterpart - the US flyboy is likely trained to think of himself as a war winning weapon in his own right, rather than an auxiliary fundamentally bound up with the movements of the Army (in the way I imagine the Confederate aviator to be - the importance of airborne reconnaissance, top cover and softening up enemy positions to the Blitzkrieg warfare of the Southern Army, coupled with the relatively modest supply of airplanes, probably keeps the CS Air Army busy enough without trying to win the war all on their own).

Doubtless the Southern Navy would really, really like squadrons of their own - but from what I can tell the Featherston Administration seems to have been made the Navy the red headed stepchild of budgetary allocations.

 

[Tiro]

A few ideas for naming Aircraft:-

UNITED STATES - I believe there's something of a trend to use numbers in place of names for US aircraft, but that's no fun so I might as well offer SOME suggestions!

BOMBERS: Visigoth, Vandal, Viking (as a nod to Gotha bombers of WWI, to the Northern Hordes of old and to the havoc these big fellows will be wrecking on the opposition), Skyscraper (a name I usually hang to the local equivalent of the Superfortress, as a nod to just how HIGH these fellows can fly), Filibuster (applied to a bomber notorious for spearheading attacks on Richmond and interrupting sessions of Southern Congress in the process), Leveller (i.e. "Will level all standing structures in a hurry"), Thunderbird, Condor.

SCOUTS: Plainsman, Lookout, Pioneer, Frontiersman (I like the idea that Socialist influenced USA really buys into the motif of the American heading West), Owl (Big Eyes = Scout), Swift.

FIGHTERS: Eclipse, Sundowner (nod to Pacific War against "Land of the Rising Sun"), Loggerhead, Hatchet, Sharpshooter, Peacemaker.

TRANSPORT: Spartacus (A nod to the Red Revolutionaries and to the OG Rebel, to the Socialist movement of Our Own timeline, as well as a less direct one to the Hercules of Our Own History), Conestoga (another nod to Wagon Trains of Old West), Lugger ("SOMEONE has to lug your **** round the map, son - that's us"), Swallow ("We hold everything").

GROUND ATTACK: Raven, Buzzard (I tend to associate birds w. USA, beasts w. CSA), Hacksaw, Buzzsaw, Whipsaw (able to cut through large numbers of ... well everything = Ground Attack), Jackhammer, Sledgehammer (might work best for a dive bomber, might work best of all for a straight-up bomber).

SEAPLANES: Gull, Albatross, Lugger, Clipper, Gander.


CONFEDERATE STATES

BOMBERS - Rattlesnake (aka "shake & break" "rattle & shake" "shake & quake"), Copperhead ("So good you know we must have stole it"), Sidewinder ("Hit THIS!").

SCOUTS - Miami, Kiowa, Ottawa (I imagine that the Confederacy uses the "Honest Injun" archetype to whip up righteous indignation against the North and I like the idea that the names slowly become more aggressive over time - Ottawa being a LONG way from CS territory).

FIGHTERS - Caballero/Cavalier (one imagines quite a few of the earliest purpose built CS warplanes initially carried Spanish names, to maintain the polite fiction that these were really MEXICAN designs), Bloodhound, Coon Hound, Wolfhound, Foxhound (all variants of the Hound Dog).

TRANSPORTS - Burro, Traveller (the former is a younger design than the latter).

GROUND ATTACK - Thoroughbred, Colt (based on association w. "Mule"), Toro, Longhorn (based on fighting bulls goring their opponents more than anything else).

SEAPLANES - Buccaneer.

 

[Historyman 14]

A few ideas for naming Aircraft:-

UNITED STATES - I believe there's something of a trend to use numbers in place of names for US aircraft, but that's no fun so I might as well offer SOME suggestions!


CONFEDERATE STATES

I really like these.

One Confederate Fighter we made here was the Mule 'Asskicker' and another 'Hound Dog' here.

I try come up with an few names of my own.

 

[pattontank12]

I like the idea of the Union naming their aircraft after mythological creatures during the first great war and interwar years.

Fighters: Griffin, Basilisk and Phoenix.

Bombers: Dragon, Wyvern and Gargoyle.

 

[pattontank12]

P-45 Dragon: Developed in joint cooperation between Fokker and Wright as a potential long range reconnaissance and bomber jet. The first drafts being drawn up in 1944 with test flights occurring throughout the 1945 to 47 by the United States Military, before the designed would be termed unfeasible.

 

[zoomar]

When I read these books, I tended to presume that the USA and CSA probably borrowed much from their powerful, and possibly more technologically advanced, European Allies, especially in the First Great War. I presumed many of the aircraft used by the two North American powers would be license-built copies of European designs. The CSA, having two major technological giants in their corner (Britain and France) might display a wider variety of aircraft, leading to more local innovation. The USA would lean heavily on German designs. For the American-German alliance, lighter-than-air flight, especially in the 1900-1940 period could be interesting. After about 1920, the combination of large Zeppelin airships and the German expertise in their construction and use with American helium resources could provide the nucleus for a radically different trajectory in American and German aviation in the midwar years leading to very large rigid airships still being in use as naval scouts and even as aerial aircraft carriers in the US Navy and Kaiserliche Marine. This is a possibility that Turtledove apparently didn't explore.