WI - German V-1 ready in 1940?

What if the Germans had operational V-1s in 1940? As I understand it, the V-1 was fairly crude and didn't have any ground-breaking tech holding it back, like the V-2 (or jet engines for that matter).

Let's say they had the V-1, maybe even with "portable" launchers (maybe some collapsible rail system mounted on a tank chassis, and a reusable RATO of some kind). The quick fall of France would probably preempt their introduction early (as well as unsuitable targets), but what about the BoB?

Intercepts would be very difficult. First the RAF would have to figure out what they were facing, and ways to combat them (diving attacks would probably be required to get the necessary speed to intercept), and raids to the French launch sites (and the problems in finding mobile sites) would tax the RAF resources. All this while the same conventional aerial attacks occurring IOTL would be happening simultaneously.

Would the V-1 be a game changer in 1940 or meh?

Ric350
 

Pomphis

Banned
IMO in a negative sense. The V-1 was so inaccurate that it couldn´t be used to attack airfields or radar stations. Terror attacks wouldn´t break british morale. At teh same time, while crude, they still had to be build and swallowed resources and fuel for one-way trips. So the luftwaffe would have fewer planes, IMO not a good deal for the luftwaffe.
 
Luftwaffe losses during the Blitz were sufficiently low that it sounds like a bad trade, to switch relatively accurate reusable bombers to inaccurate consumable cruise missiles. You're not going to destroy Coventry or burn the City with V1s, put it that way.
 

marathag

Banned
So the luftwaffe would have fewer planes, IMO not a good deal for the luftwaffe.

But the UK spent more on that threat to stop than the Nazis did in fielding them, so in a 'Deep Pockets' way, were a win

They were a cheap, inaccurate way to get HE to the UK from France, or in 1940, HE to France from behind the Sigfried Line
 

thaddeus

Donor
believe it was pulse jet that vibrated so much that was delay? had the V-2 program not consumed so much of resources and/or brainpower it could have been ready six months or year earlier IIRC? (meaning OTL design)

there was also advanced a plan to use small BMW jet engine(s)? which would have solved problems with interception if not accuracy.
 
Unles the V1 has a homing device that uses the radar emmiters to home on, it is just going to plow the English contryside.

The Bf 109 with a drop tank would've been a far better use of limited German resources.
 
In a (limited) defence of the utility of the V1 (and God Knows I am no fan) if one compares the resources between the same bomb load delivered by He111 the V1 is cheaper. Needs less infrastructure (airfields etc.) and no training of aircrew who are then lost. An He111 has a limited operational life span before being lost to enemy action or accident whereas the Vi uses little expensive materials (compare the pulse jet to x2 supercharged V12s) so more bang is delivered for the same bucks. However it's targeting is comparable to the RAF in night bombing in 1940 ie is lucky to hit the right county never mind town. If you can deliver them to launch sites then you can maintain the bombardment 24/7.In 1940 the Luftwaffe with fighters and flak is in a much better position to defend the launch sites than in 1944/5. As with all such devices they key is targeting not firepower.
 
Would the V-1 be a game changer in 1940 or meh?

A bit of both, I would guess. The V-1 was designed to penetrate a heavily defended airspace unaided and hit a target the size of London. It accomplished this by being cheap enough to build that many missing or being shot down was acceptable. Initial CEP was 19 miles, down to 7 by the end of the war according to Wiki. At 400mph, it was too hot for the fighters of the day to catch, and radar AA technology hadn't caught up yet. OTOH, the CEP was too large to be effective against military targets. It's possible that with escorted V-1 strikes CEP could improve, but well enough to hit an airfield or factory? I doubt it. That leaves cities, which were not targets that could effect the outcome to the war.

Edit - it might have been possible in 1940 to adapt the V-1 to one of the beam riding navigation systems to improve CEP. Or maybe a command guidance system, if escorted.
 
IIRC there was some guidance; the buzz bombs followed radio beams, and on the assumption they would stay on the beam a timer could bring it down at a moment it was supposed to be above a target. The British did develop beam jammers pretty early on after the V-1 bombings began.

I agree that there would be no way they'd break British resolve and certainly would not damage British capabilities with any efficiency. Early in the war they'd be nearly as unstoppable as a V-2 because of their high speed. (Intercepting V-1 was the major task British jet fighters performed in combat in the war. Some pilots learned to fly up parallel, and use their wings to flip the drone upside down, which would derange its autopilot and cause them to crash, saving bullets).

And indeed there are questions about whether it would have been possible to make them operational much sooner that OTL. The Argus pulse jets produced really bad vibration--they were considered but rejected for manned planes, because the vibration was just too nasty. Engineering around that well enough for a drone took some time, evidently.

Replacing the pulse jets with turbojets would cause their cost, in the most relevant terms especially, to skyrocket. Anyway that solution would not make the drone available in time for BoB either.

I do wonder if it might have been possible to design a system whereby a high-flying fast German aircraft analogous more or less to a Mosquito might have "shepherded" the drones to worthwhile targets, by carrying a spotter equipped with a telescope and tight beam transmitter, to beam down terse coded course correction instructions to individual drones and then send the "dive to target" signal manually, to strike at high-value targets. Obviously this would mean making a manned airplane as fast as the drones, and flying high and maneuverably enough to evade both fighters and ground-based flak.
 

marathag

Banned
Edit - it might have been possible in 1940 to adapt the V-1 to one of the beam riding navigation systems to improve CEP. Or maybe a command guidance system, if escorted.

It took the hardened vacuum tube tech needed for VT fuzing to survive the vibration of the postwar pulsejet USN Loons that had real real guidance
 

marathag

Banned
IIRC there was some guidance; the buzz bombs followed radio beams, and on the assumption they would stay on the beam a timer could bring it down at a moment it was supposed to be above a target. The British did develop beam jammers pretty early on after the V-1 bombings began

No, V-1 just azimuth bearing held by a preset gyro, and a distance tracker that would cut the motor at preset mark
 

Archibald

Banned
And the said distance tracker was just a kind of dumb clockwork mechanism that counted "how many rotations of a small propeller" and tried - badly - to get a distance out of that. And then that wonder guidance system made the V-1 dive on the supposed target. (yes, the V-1 had a propeller, albeit a very small one - and I'm no kiddin, that's how the freakkin' V-1 guidance worked)

https://books.google.fr/books?id=CO...EINjAE#v=onepage&q=V-1 dive propeller&f=false

I LMFAO imagining crazy nazi rocket scientists whacking their brains counting the number of propeller blades the V-1 needed to reach great Britain and dive on the target. Maybe they got the idea wearing propeller hats ?
 
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Looking back in hindsight, a relatively few of them could have diverted a lot of work into stopping the Buzz Bomb Menace. They're fast enough to be a nightmare to stop, but would seem stoppable, so--time for work on how to stop them.
 
And the said distance tracker was just a kind of dumb clockwork mechanism that counted "how many rotations of a small propeller" and tried - badly - to get a distance out of that. And then that wonder guidance system made the V-1 dive on the supposed target. (yes, the V-1 had a propeller, albeit a very small one - and I'm no kiddin, that's how the freakkin' V-1 guidance worked)

I LMFAO imagining crazy nazi rocket scientists whacking their brains counting the number of propeller blades the V-1 needed to reach great Britain and dive on the target. Maybe they got the idea wearing propeller hats ?

They sought to adjust the accuracy of the calibration of the propellor turn numbers by correlating them to actual impacts. British Intelligence countered this by letting the Germans have false impact reports from turned spies and foreign press so that the distance settings were altered to avoid impacting London and fell short. Un peut d'un bugger if you lived in Kent Surrey or Sussex and got the Londoners rejects. Mind you in East Kent you were getting shelled by German artillery in France anyway.
 
Ah, where is wiking when you need him the most? We just had a conversation on this a while ago, and while wiking won't be able to join for a while sadly, he did give some great points, which I feel the evidence strongly favors them along with some expanding details of my own. Note, I'm simply paraphrasing what he has told me.

Let's say a V-1 is launched every 15 minutes. That would be 96 V-1s per day. Let's assume a V-1 killed two people on average and the campaign went for 365 days, a full year. For 96 V-1s * 2 people killed on average hit * 365 days would be around 70k deaths. Around 50% more causalities than the Blitz using fewer fuel, fewer strategic materials and no loss of aircrew at all!

For those that say "this would bankrupt Germany", we should compare the costs of the V-1's lanuched per day for a full year:

96 V-1's * 365 days * 5,090 RM(cost of single V-1) = 178,353,600 RM(Just about the cost of a Bismarck battleship, and remember, no strategic materials are used, just plywood and sheet metal)

compared to the Blitz:

Now I'm going to be generous and use the amount of aircraft lost by using the Bf 110 as an example with just it's airframe with no engines at all. I understand there were cheaper designs such as the Bf 109 and and much higher cost designs such as the He 111, but I feel as if the Bf 110 with no engines is the perfect averaging balance.

Bf 110 airframe cost is 155,800 RM * 2,265 aircraft lost = 352,887,000 RM.

So Germany could spend around half the cost of an flying bomb with no losses to German aircrew, going at it for a full year compared to the nine months done by the Blitz.

Having a V-1 ready to strike London around August/September with no blitz, is a perfect what if unlike Hitler taking a Mediterranean route or appealing to the Soviet citizens as "liberators." This scenario works perfectly for Germany economically. For those who say the V-1 is inaccurate, here is a map showcasing the radius of a V-1 with original accuracy being 19 miles of a radius and then improved accuracy with 7 miles of a radius.

V-1 London range radius.png


Remember improving accuracy was from June 1944 to March 1945, over a period of nine months where Germany was facing constant heavy bombing from the allies along with even poorer intelligence gathering. In 1940, the Germans would have factories virtually unopposed and could bring the necessary material to bring the V-1s into the production.

For those who say it will waste more resources, you need to understand that when comparing for the cost of the aircraft, others have pointed out that the V-1s need to be simply built and armed, while bombers such as the He 111 need not only their air-frame, but engines, electronics, MGs and a trained crew which takes up more costs for fuel as they must learn to fly the plane many times before heading into combat.

As for those who say that the British morale wouldn't break, using the Allied bombings as an example for how German morale sat still, take a look at how our current government which has played music nonstop to terrorist prisoners and how after days, it would seriously derange them mentally. If they would hear the same music on certain days, while not hearing other days, the mind would be able to have a rest from it being able to interfere with it's cognitive abilities. When we sent thousand bomber raids over Germany, many of them were at night to limit interception, and there would few breaks in between bombings, some nights were left alone, but the the daytime would be peaceful mostly.

In this scenario put forward, Londoners would hear explosions along with the buzzing noises and have buildings destroyed constantly day and night, with virtually NO break in between. I doubt anyone could sustain having a continued 24 hour bombing on their capital receiving no sleep, and no time to even construct a part of the city which will be going on for a year or more. Emergency relief would be constantly overwhelmed, along with fires that could not be put out due to fear of a V-1 missile falling. London would have no time in rebuilding their city and industry, along with massive panic as many Londoners would try to flee the city clogging up railways(Even if a quarter of the population were to leave, 2 million would still significantly choke up the lines, reducing logistics to rebuild the city).
 
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How would the RAF react to such a bombardement? Lets say it is the type DerGiLLster has described, so a year round constant barage every 15 minutes a missile.

Could the RAF handle the constant patrols needed to keep up and how would German fighter sweeps impact that?
 
If this gets started in late '40 - early '41, then the Germans are more than capable of conducting direct observation of V1 hits over the London area, which will allow them to fine-tune their accuracy.
 
The V1 was a pretty unsophisticated weapon, from what I remember it took only unsophisticated methods to block it (barrage balloons, AAA, disinformation by turned agents, disturbing the airflow around the aircraft etc....) so I'm guessing after the initial shock the British response would be more or less the same as OTL , I would suggest however that the big difference in introducing the V1 in 1940 would be the British developing their own version to hit back with.
 
compared to the Blitz:

Now I'm going to be generous and use the amount of aircraft lost by using the Bf 110 as an example with just it's airframe with no engines at all. I understand there were cheaper designs such as the Bf 109 and and much higher cost designs such as the He 111, but I feel as if the Bf 110 with no engines is the perfect averaging balance.

Bf 110 airframe cost is 155,800 RM * 2,265 aircraft lost = 352,887,000 RM.

So Germany could spend around half the cost of an flying bomb with no losses to German aircrew, going at it for a full year compared to the nine months done by the Blitz.

Germany didn't lose 2265 aircraft in the Blitz. Wiki gives a figure of 518, and about a third of those are in daylight attacks as the BoB wound down in in October and November. I think you're conflating the losses experienced in the BoB.

Now, you might say that that's fine, because with V1s you don't need a Battle of Britain. But the BoB's objective was to destroy Fighter Command, and the targets were airfields and factories. These are not vulnerable to V1s, so either the BoB losses are not relevant, or German strategy has changed completely. If it's the latter, then what is the strategy? Germany wants to force Britain to the peace table, and the way to do that is to shock the Government or to change the strategic picture. V1s don't really do either, they're too inaccurate.

If it's the former, rework your calculation to account for Blitz losses of about 450. Now account for tonnes delivered - 18,300 t in the Night Blitz. This is bomb and filler, the explosive alone is around half, call it 9000 t. A V1 has a 0.85 t warhead, so to achieve the Blitz's tonnage would require 10,500 V-1s. For this to be a good trade, all other things being equal, a bomber would have to be about 4% of the cost of a V1, I think.

Of course, things aren't equal. The V1 can't reach the Midlands. It can't concentrate in space or time to achieve the effects on Coventry, Belfast or the City or the docks. All it can do is indiscriminately - even by WW2 standards! - plaster the south-east of England. It would be frustrating for the British because of the difficulty of defence - but so was the Blitz.

Its only real advantage seems to be the retention of aircrew for Barbarossa.
 
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