WI: Hitler dies in Autumn 1941

[GlobalHumanism]

What if Hitler had died during the fall months of Operation Barbarossa. How do you think this might of effected the conduct of the operation?
Do you think whoever assumed power in the aftermath would be willing negotiate a settlement with the Soviets and allies?

 

[Lalli]

Göring would succeed Hitler since he was designated successor. But not really sure how Barbarossa would go now. Göring perhaps not micromanage things as greatly as in OTL. And he might be smart enough not to declare war to USA. But in other hand USA probably would declare war to Germany later anyway. This might too has some affect to Holocaust and other nazi plans since Wannsee Conference would occur only just on early 1942.

 

[Alan]

Goring would have been willing to reach a compromise peace with Stalin as he was opposed to Barbarossa from the beginning. He was too lazy to micromanage the war in the way Hitler did, so the generals in the field would have had much more freedom to conduct operations. The campaign against the Jews would probably have been less murderous, although they would certainly have been plundered of everything they owned and used for slave labour. What the ultimate outcome of these changes would have been is hard to say.

 

[Kronistry]

What if Hitler had died during the fall months of Operation Barbarossa. How do you think this might of effected the conduct of the operation?
Do you think whoever assumed power in the aftermath would be willing negotiate a settlement with the Soviets and allies?

Besides what has already been said, the Wehrmacht would surely be in a better situation in the East because the offensive towards Moscow would have been stopped earlier without Hitler's insistence (Halder who advocated an all-out attack on the Soviet capital would be sidelined ITTL), so when the Red Army counterattacks in December, the Germans would be better prepared and less exhausted. On the other hand, Moscow would be quite far from the front line, around 50-60 km instead of the 10 km of December 4, 1941.

 

[Catspoke]

The Generals wanted to do Typhoon, both first and second phases, and wanted to do a lot of the OTL divergence to the secondary objectives, don't see a whole lot changing there.
A Goering might offer terms, easier for him politically since he didn't start it. (I don't see the Soviets accepting anything worse than a return to their 1939 boundaries.). A peace is unlikely, except maybe late November when the Germans are stalling and before the USA is in (1939 boundaries).

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

The Generals wanted to do Typhoon, both first and second phases, and wanted to do a lot of the OTL divergence to the secondary objectives, don't see a whole lot changing there.
A Goering might offer terms, easier for him politically since he didn't start it. (I don't see the Soviets accepting anything worse than a return to their 1939 boundaries.). A peace is unlikely, except maybe late November when the Germans are stalling and before the USA is in (1939 boundaries).

I don't see any Nazi politician surviving after making a peace that has only 1939 boundaries when German troops are a few dozens km outside of Moscow.

 

[RedSword12]

Göring is less attached to the alliance with the Japanese than Hitler, so he might refrain from declaring war after Pearl Harbor.
While not as neck-deep involved in the Holocaust as much as other top Nazis, he was still highly antisemitic and by this time the Einsatzgruppen have completed their transition from targeted killings of imagined political enemies to wholesale indiscriminate murder of all Jews, women and children included. Frankly I think he'd be fine with them continuing their work at least in the first sweep, even if he might later support the technocrats' preference to let remaining Jews live to extract labor before killing them.
I still think Guderian's turn to the south, and therefore the Kiev Pocket still would happen, since contrary to popular belief there was a fair amount of support for it among German commanders, the main objection being from hindsight. I still think the Germans would go for broke with Moscow, and with little difference in the result. Hitler's stand fast order was never universally implemented and it in reality made little difference since many units were incapable of major retreats even if they had wanted to try.

 

[Catspoke]

I don't see any Nazi politician surviving after making a peace that has only 1939 boundaries when German troops are a few dozens km outside of Moscow.

Which is why peace won't happen, peace can happen only if both sides think they are weak. Really about 10 days in October when the Soviets think they are that weak, but those 10 days the Germans think they have won. Once the Soviet counterattack starts the USA is in, no reason for the Soviets to make peace on any terms then.

Goering would probably do 1942 in the east roughly the same, since he is tied in financially with all the oil business. Fall 41 is late to change the trajectory of much.

 

[Belisarius II]

If Hitler died in the fall of 1941 Goering would probably become the nominal head of State. The Reichstag would vote the Reichmarshall Chancellor of Germany. The office of president had been merged by Hitler with that of chancellor on the death of Von Hindenburg in Aug 1934. Since Hitler never bothered to write a new constitution the Weimar one was still in force. Since Goering wouldn't be Fuehrer since that title was so associated with Hitler a figure head president might have been appointed or the office just ignored. Hitler's cabinet would remain in place along with the military hierarchy.

Goering wasn't the man of 1934. His mind was weakened by drug addiction and a decadent lifestyle. His weight had ballooned, and his energy level was falling. We know by 1943 he was suffering from narcolepsy. His tendency to bombast, greed, empire building, and long periods of idleness would lead him to depend on his staff to handle many of the day-to-day decisions of State. Like most of the top leaders of Nazi Germany Goering was subject to serious paranoia. The leadership was an everyman for himself dynamic, with everyone working to undermine the others since all power stemmed from the Fuehrer's favor.

In this environment with weak leadership at the top tensions between the branches of the armed forces would be worse. The power of the SS might be weakened with the best result being a slowdown of the Final Solution. Most of the German Generals were all in for the Battle of Moscow so the offensive would drag on till early December followed by the Soviet counter offensive. Other effects of the death of Hitler would be the fall of Martin Borman whom everyone hated, and that on the death of Dr Todt the outsider Albert Speer wouldn't become Minister of Armaments. The more radical faction of the party would be weakened by the loss of influence by Joseph Goebbels, another advocate of the Final Solution. Goering wouldn't declare war on the U.S., but the war was already lost.

 

[Kaiser of Brazil]

This might too has some affect to Holocaust and other nazi plans since Wannsee Conference would occur only just on early 1942.

The campaign against the Jews would probably have been less murderous

While not as neck-deep involved in the Holocaust as much as other top Nazis

Göring was the one who called the Wannsee conference to begin with, it was an order made by him to Heydrich (which was as good as an order from Hitler since Adolf was reluctant to personally get involved) to assemble political and regional authorities to make a "Final Solution".

The only thing moderate is that he would work the "useful" Jews to death rather than immediately killing them and even so the end-goal was the same. I don't see why Göring seems so whitewashed in his role in the Holocaust just because he has the image of a drugged up, eccentric fat man. He was highly intelligent and well aware of what he was doing, he did even help the German elites to get on-board with Hitler's plans.

He was the head of the 4-year plan which was responsible for the Aryanization of businesses and was one of the bridges between the government and business (like the Circle of Friends of the Reichsführer-SS and the sectors of Speer and Sauckel) which shipped in millions of "Ostarbeiter" and Jews to be fed to the grinding industry of death factories. Evans estimated that roughly 600 thousand people were killed just in the Krupp factories through programs like Görings.

So why would he be less involved? Because he didn't run gas chambers? He had the same ideas that the German leadership had at this point almost unanimously. From the moment the Einstaatzgruppen started to massacre Jews in the east, extermination was already set as an endgoal, the Wannsee conference only formalized it and created a new system to be... less traumatic to the soldiers.

 

[RedSword12]

Göring was the one who called the Wannsee conference to begin with, it was an order made by him to Heydrich (which was as good as an order from Hitler since Adolf was reluctant to personally get involved) to assemble political and regional authorities to make a "Final Solution".

The only thing moderate is that he would work the "useful" Jews to death rather than immediately killing them and even so the end-goal was the same. I don't see why Göring seems so whitewashed in his role in the Holocaust just because he has the image of a drugged up, eccentric fat man. He was highly intelligent and well aware of what he was doing, he did even help the German elites to get on-board with Hitler's plans.

He was the head of the 4-year plan which was responsible for the Aryanization of businesses and was one of the bridges between the government and business (like the Circle of Friends of the Reichsführer-SS and the sectors of Speer and Sauckel) which shipped in millions of "Ostarbeiter" and Jews to be fed to the grinding industry of death factories. Evans estimated that roughly 600 thousand people were killed just in the Krupp factories through programs like Görings.

So why would he be less involved? Because he didn't run gas chambers? He had the same ideas that the German leadership had at this point almost unanimously. From the moment the Einstaatzgruppen started to massacre Jews in the east, extermination was already set as an endgoal, the Wannsee conference only formalized it and created a new system to be... less traumatic to the soldiers.

I was referring specifically to the time of the POD. And if you had read anything I said past the first phrase, you would see that I stated that he was highly antisemitic and that I don't think he would have any problem letting the Einsatzgruppen continue to run wild, and the only purpose to forestalling their activities in any way would be to extract labor (which as we all know would end in the victim's death after they ceased to be capable of labor). Whitewashing indeed! Seems to me like you just glanced at one phrase and then stopped reading entirely.

 

[Kaiser of Brazil]

I was referring specifically to the time of the POD. And if you had read anything I said past the first phrase, you would see that I stated that he was highly antisemitic and that I don't think he would have any problem letting the Einsatzgruppen continue to run wild, and the only purpose to forestalling their activities in any way would be to extract labor before killing whatever Jews remain. What whitewashing! Seems to me like you just glanced at one phrase and then stopped reading entirely.

I apologize if it wasn't clear, this isn't directed at you in specific, I was referring to a general misconception in these alternate history circles, which fits right along others like the Apolitical Speer.

 

[Tolkiene]

If Hitler died in the fall of 1941 Goering would probably become the nominal head of State. The Reichstag would vote the Reichmarshall Chancellor of Germany. The office of president had been merged by Hitler with that of chancellor on the death of Von Hindenburg in Aug 1934. Since Hitler never bothered to write a new constitution the Weimar one was still in force. Since Goering wouldn't be Fuehrer since that title was so associated with Hitler a figure head president might have been appointed or the office just ignored. Hitler's cabinet would remain in place along with the military hierarchy.

Actually, while the Nazis never bothered to write a new constitution or carry out the promised Reichsreform, Hitler stipulated in his decrees on the succession that Göring would succeed him in all offices in state and party. The Law on the Succession of the Führer and Reich Chancellor (Gesetz über die Nachfolge des Führers und Reichskanzlers) of 13 December 1934 gave Hitler the right to appoint his own successor. On 19 December 1934 he did that when he signed a decree that made Göring his heir in all his offices and further stated that all members of the Party, the government, the SA, the SS and the military would have to swear an oath of fealty to him. One exemplar of the decree remained with Hitler, a second with Lammers and a third with Blomberg. Göring was only informed orally. The other Reich ministers were only officially informed about the arrangement in 1936, though Göring unsurprisingly did not miss the chance to informally spread about it because it was something to brag about, and thus the inner circle was already aware by then. On 23 April 1938 Hitler signed another decree that stated the same (and also stipulated that Hess would manage the Party under Göring if something happened to Hitler, which was essentially what Hess was at the time already doing for Hitler).

He made the succession arrangement public on 1 September 1939:

' Should anything happen to me in the struggle then my first successor is Party Comrade Goring; should anything happen to Party Comrade Goring my next successor is Party Comrade Hess. You would then be under obligation to give to them as Fuhrer the same blind loyalty and obedience as to myself. Should anything happen to Party Comrade Hess, then by law the Senate will be called, and will choose from its midst the most worthy - that is to say the bravest - successor.'

Hitler signed another decree in 1941 shortly before Barbarossa, which restated that Göring would be his deputy if he was incapacitated and serve as his successor. The only difference was that Hess was removed from the succession arrangement due to his flight to Scotland. He only split the offices in his political testament in 1945, since there was nothing left to inherit anyway and Göring had, as he saw it, betrayed him. But both his Tabletalk and draft laws from the Reich Chancellery from 1941 and the Reich Interior Ministry from 1939 on the creation of a Nazi Senate post-war show he didn't intend for the Führer title to be restricted to him alone. And Göring's ego and desire for power is definitely big enough not to settle for anything less.

I apologize if it wasn't clear, this isn't directed at you in specific, I was referring to a general misconception in these alternate history circles, which fits right along others like the Apolitical Speer.

On the eve of Barbarossa, Göring asked Heydrich to provide a small manual so that the troops would know who to 'put up against the wall'. And during a meeting with Count Ciano, he bragged that Nazi starvation policies would kill 30 million Slavs. The Hunger Plan - or more precisely Hungerpolitik - was in many ways devised by people who at the time were part of his bailiwick. He thought very highly of Herbert Backe. And Göring was an important factor in the Nazis' anti-Jewish policy until about 1942. As Phil Blood shows in one of his books, the Luftwaffe also had death squads of its own.

Never mind the fact that, from the Nazi perspective, there was no contradiction between exterminating the Jews and working those considered 'useful enough' to death. It's literally in the Wannsee Protocol. And Jews employed in the armaments industry in the General Government were initially spared from Aktion Reinhardt in OTL. It's pertinent to note that by autumn 1941 the Heer, SS-police, and Waffen-SS/Kommandostab Reichsführer-SS etc. are already murdering Soviet Jews en masse. What had not been decided yet was the complete extermination of all European Jews during the war, though as the Nazis' own documents show, the Madagascar Plan had already been intended to be genocidal in nature. By the time the Wannsee Conference was convened the decisions had been made. It was an implementation conference, and Heydrich based his commission on Göring's authority.