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Looks about right - and yeah, SJ v SF is sorta splitting hairs.
And no teams in PHX or Vegas, either
Into the Cincoverse - The Cinco de Mayo EU Thread and Wikibox Repository
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And no teams in PHX or Vegas, either
mortonofski
Donor
Or Ottawa, it appears, though since the Feds decamped down the Rideau around the same time the Sens were formed IOTL, that tracks, and despite Kingston hosting the first recorded hockey game in Canada it's probably still too small to warrant a pro hockey team.
Which reminds me, is Vegas in Nevada or New Mexico (TTL's wide one east to west) at this point?
And with a team in Los Angeles, the idea of some city in the desert between Los Angeles and the Texas Border is probably being considered as a new home for Hamilton.
Also, is there still time for San Diego to not be *quite* as eclipsed by Los Angeles iTTL?
Note, I could honestly see the reason that there is no team in Las Vegas/Phoenix area is that Mormon Fundamentalists make things too unstable. I mean who wants to move a hockey team there if the Rugby stadium at the Public University in Phoenix or Vegas has been bombed by Mormon Fundamentalists twice in the last 20 years...
(And yes, I think TL-191 went too far with the People bombs, but given that the Fundamentalists are separated from the main Church, it is possible.)
More or less exactly it
It's in Nevada.
San Diego is eclipsed, but it being the port for the Pacific Fleet (with Puget Sound getting a base roughly OTL's size of Bremerton/Bangor/NAS Whidbey agglomeration) and also the main power projection node towards Latin America sans the Gulf Coast, Southeast and Puerto Rico/Guantanamo, it's way bigger and also way more of a Navy town. A hockey team there could, potentially, work.
Mormon fundamentalism is a big problem but not to the extent that you wouldn't place a sports team in the region - it's just that ITTL, there was no Bettman with the idea to go all-in on the Sun Belt which is outside of hockey's traditional heartland.
Seven Sisters (North American sororities)
The Seven Sisters, also known as the Southern Sisters, are a group of seven collegiate sorority social organizations founded in and primarily based in the Confederate States of America. The Seven Sisters are: Alpha Delta Pi, Phi Mu, Chi Omega, Delta Gamma, Kappa Delta, Sigma Sigma Sigma, and Zeta Tau Alpha. As of the 2022-23 academic year, only Kappa Delta and Chi Omega operate chapters outside of the Confederate States or Texas, and Zeta Tau Alpha no longer has a presence within Texas since 2014.
The Seven Sisters are all active on every major Confederate university or college campus and have been associated, both by supporters and detractors, as "purveyors and perpetuators of the standards of elite white Confederate womanhood." Along with the Confederate fraternity network, members of the Seven Sisters generally come from elite Confederate families in local states and their presence (with the specific elite sororities depending from campus to campus) within each organization typically leads to social advancement after studies are over; all but three women elected to the Confederate Congress had or have a Seven Sisters background. Most of the organizations have chaperoned events and women are generally discouraged from working, drinking, or dating while members on campus without supervision and approval from the sorority, though these stipulations have largely relaxed since the late 1990s; nonetheless, four of the Sisters still cite premarital sex as grounds for expulsion in their charters.
The organizations began attracting controversy for their exclusionary recruitment practices as well as hazing incidents and "ritualized courtships including campus marriages" in the late 1970s and were caught up in the general early 1980s surge of campus activism across North America, with the Seven Sisters seen as being a major impediment to the integration of Confederate universities and the explicit segregation and classism of the sororities even compared to affiliated Confederate fraternities becoming a point of controversy. In 1982, six universities in the United States explicitly banned the four Sisters operating outside of the CSA (Kappa Delta, Chi Omega, Phi Mu and Delta Gamma) from their campuses, and ten more would follow suit the following year, and Delta Gamma voluntarily closed their chapters in the United States and Canada in spring 1984 after a contentious vote. In one of the most infamous episodes of the 1980s student protests, in October 1984, during a major protest by the Students Against Confederate Segregation, the chapter house of Phi Mu at the Ohio State University was occupied for three days, with its sisters - none of whom were from the Confederacy - considered to have been held hostage, though none were physically or otherwise harmed. The incident, which also helped spark a backlash against campus activism for years to come, led to all Seven Sisters chapters to close within nine months north of the Ohio and their subsequent withdrawal from the North American Panhellenic Conference, and Kappa Delta and Chi Omega would not return to American campuses until 1998 and remain the only Sisters that have re-joined the NAPC.
The Seven Sisters were, and still are, central to the Confederate debate around desegregation and the legacy of Reconciliation. Even after university campuses began to be desegregated in fits and starts post-1988 and public life was essentially integrated with the Carter Protocol in 1992, the Seven Sisters maintained, as private organizations, strictly segregated facilities and rosters. Delta Gamma, regarded as the most organizationally liberal of the Sisters, shut down their Xi chapter at the University of Georgia when it voted in 2001 internally to open recruitment (though not necessarily commit to bids) to black women by an overwhelming vote of their national board, which elicited massive controversy, protests and the firebombing of their chapter on the campus of the University of South Carolina. In 2008, the Mississippi State University announced in a narrow vote of its Board of Governors it would disassociate with organizations that were not "formally" desegregated on its campus, leading to a wave of student protests, harassment of black students, and threats to exit the school; Kappa Delta and Chi Omega voted to acquiesce to the university's demands and the national organizations did not shut them down, and Delta Gamma, Phi Mu and Sigma Sigma Sigma followed shortly thereafter, while Zeta Tau Alpha and Alpha Delta Pi, the two most conservative of the Sisters, elected to close their MSU chapters, and would not reopen them until 2015.
Over the course of the 2010s, the Seven Sisters informally desegregated at the national level, ending formal policies of closing chapters that "promoted the mixing of the races" while still maintaining formal restrictions on interracial dating for members; despite this push starting in the 2000s, it has been found that less than 2% of Seven Sisters members are black as of 2021, the last year for which there are reliable statistics, and that most Black women (and of other races, such as Latin or Asian) at Confederate universities gravitate towards ethnic interest sororities, and the influence on the social calendar and student governance of universities is still highly dominated by the organizations in a way that has been suggested that they "above and beyond fraternities and academic knighthoods are the firmament of white supremacy and class tension on the Confederate collegiate campus."
The Seven Sisters are all active on every major Confederate university or college campus and have been associated, both by supporters and detractors, as "purveyors and perpetuators of the standards of elite white Confederate womanhood." Along with the Confederate fraternity network, members of the Seven Sisters generally come from elite Confederate families in local states and their presence (with the specific elite sororities depending from campus to campus) within each organization typically leads to social advancement after studies are over; all but three women elected to the Confederate Congress had or have a Seven Sisters background. Most of the organizations have chaperoned events and women are generally discouraged from working, drinking, or dating while members on campus without supervision and approval from the sorority, though these stipulations have largely relaxed since the late 1990s; nonetheless, four of the Sisters still cite premarital sex as grounds for expulsion in their charters.
The organizations began attracting controversy for their exclusionary recruitment practices as well as hazing incidents and "ritualized courtships including campus marriages" in the late 1970s and were caught up in the general early 1980s surge of campus activism across North America, with the Seven Sisters seen as being a major impediment to the integration of Confederate universities and the explicit segregation and classism of the sororities even compared to affiliated Confederate fraternities becoming a point of controversy. In 1982, six universities in the United States explicitly banned the four Sisters operating outside of the CSA (Kappa Delta, Chi Omega, Phi Mu and Delta Gamma) from their campuses, and ten more would follow suit the following year, and Delta Gamma voluntarily closed their chapters in the United States and Canada in spring 1984 after a contentious vote. In one of the most infamous episodes of the 1980s student protests, in October 1984, during a major protest by the Students Against Confederate Segregation, the chapter house of Phi Mu at the Ohio State University was occupied for three days, with its sisters - none of whom were from the Confederacy - considered to have been held hostage, though none were physically or otherwise harmed. The incident, which also helped spark a backlash against campus activism for years to come, led to all Seven Sisters chapters to close within nine months north of the Ohio and their subsequent withdrawal from the North American Panhellenic Conference, and Kappa Delta and Chi Omega would not return to American campuses until 1998 and remain the only Sisters that have re-joined the NAPC.
The Seven Sisters were, and still are, central to the Confederate debate around desegregation and the legacy of Reconciliation. Even after university campuses began to be desegregated in fits and starts post-1988 and public life was essentially integrated with the Carter Protocol in 1992, the Seven Sisters maintained, as private organizations, strictly segregated facilities and rosters. Delta Gamma, regarded as the most organizationally liberal of the Sisters, shut down their Xi chapter at the University of Georgia when it voted in 2001 internally to open recruitment (though not necessarily commit to bids) to black women by an overwhelming vote of their national board, which elicited massive controversy, protests and the firebombing of their chapter on the campus of the University of South Carolina. In 2008, the Mississippi State University announced in a narrow vote of its Board of Governors it would disassociate with organizations that were not "formally" desegregated on its campus, leading to a wave of student protests, harassment of black students, and threats to exit the school; Kappa Delta and Chi Omega voted to acquiesce to the university's demands and the national organizations did not shut them down, and Delta Gamma, Phi Mu and Sigma Sigma Sigma followed shortly thereafter, while Zeta Tau Alpha and Alpha Delta Pi, the two most conservative of the Sisters, elected to close their MSU chapters, and would not reopen them until 2015.
Over the course of the 2010s, the Seven Sisters informally desegregated at the national level, ending formal policies of closing chapters that "promoted the mixing of the races" while still maintaining formal restrictions on interracial dating for members; despite this push starting in the 2000s, it has been found that less than 2% of Seven Sisters members are black as of 2021, the last year for which there are reliable statistics, and that most Black women (and of other races, such as Latin or Asian) at Confederate universities gravitate towards ethnic interest sororities, and the influence on the social calendar and student governance of universities is still highly dominated by the organizations in a way that has been suggested that they "above and beyond fraternities and academic knighthoods are the firmament of white supremacy and class tension on the Confederate collegiate campus."
Laughed at the irony of the Seven Sisters ITTL not being liberal Northeast colleges but reactionary Southern sororities.
Also, and this isn't exactly breaking news, but holy shit the CSA sounds like a dystopian hell. Curious as to what their immigration numbers are compared to the rest of North America in 2023.
Also, and this isn't exactly breaking news, but holy shit the CSA sounds like a dystopian hell. Curious as to what their immigration numbers are compared to the rest of North America in 2023.
I can imagine that they are abysmal.
Only people I can expect to go there willingly are white supremacists from the other parts of the world (who probably grumble about their paradise being ruined by [INSERT ANY POLITICAL PARTY THAT DID ANYTHING THAT HELPED THE NON-WHITES], and maybe if the situations are really bad, some field hands from some third world country that are totally not treated as slaves by the plantation owners and who are definitely liking working here, just don’t look at the fact that we literally took their passports and took advantage of their countries’ terrible situation.
Thank you for picking up at my dumb in-joke!
They’d actually probably be decent, at least from the mid-1990s onwards. Large and cheap, English-speaking, probably not that hard to immigrate to for certain melanin levels, integrated with two very large economies in US and Mexico next door… just nowhere close to OTL’s inflows.
That’s actually been one of my issues in mapping out long term Confederate demographics. I’d still say it’ll land around 45-50m by present day.
Damn - I kind of assumed that integration and the end of segregation would be happening in the 1990s or so. Although, it would be expected that the end of it defacto would take a significant amount of time, it's disheartening to see that by the 2010s the process has still been so slow. Though one would suspect that elite organizations such as these sororities would lag significantly, and it would be interesting to see if the same holds true for middle and workingclass institutions.
De jure segregation is ending in the 1990s (our Mandela/Good Friday analogue after all) but private organizations are a bit of a different animal than public ones, and you’d probably still see a lot of pretty strict “informal” segregation for a long time. Nothing like the 1964 Civil Rights Act’s teeth would be likely to be on offing even if a lot of other things became, formally and legally, open to all
I mean, IOTL many Southern Democratic Parties were legally private clubs to skirt the Fifteenth Amendment; and other private organizations were also allowed to skirt such laws in much the same way. I could very easily see private organization remain segregated even after the confederal government is forced to desegregate public areas.
There's also the question of prohibition; IOTL the generally very socially libertine atmosphere of speakeasies and the breakdown of some societal norms were important in reversing the slide of race relations (that 1923 was the nadir of racial relationships IOTL and the deflection of that curve matched with the appearance of speakeasies is not a coincidence). I don't know how Prohibition actually goes on in the CSA, but I could easily see it being much tougher and longer than that of the IRL US (which could contrast with the lack of national prohibition we'll see the Union ITTL, IIRC), and if these socially libertine, semi-integrated places (which may not necessarily be called speakeasies), that could affect the way in which the environment where such social norms break down that leads the CSA to eventually racially integrate itself.
A good point on Dem orgs in the Jim Crow era.
I hadn’t considered the prohibition angle but that’s an interesting point; you’d probably have some more lax attitudes in, say, New Orleans than elsewhere
You know your country is a fucked up racist hellhole when even the young people who attend college are fanatical white supremacists.
kham_coc
Banned
In a lot of these cases, it's the alumnia that matters, they are the ones with the cheque books.
New Orleans was considered one od the koet lax cities when it came to Prohibition, so that tracks.
It's interesting, I also hadn't considered Prohibition - despite having published on the subject (in a not Southron context).
So, my gut tells me that Southron Prohibition will play into the racist and classist angle - its needed to keep the newly liberated freedmen from going wild and harming our pure, innocent, Southron women (one out of three of whom are engaged in prostitution according to a recent post). And this goes the same for the poor Southron whites who the battered aristocracy needs, but also also remain a dangerous threat.
Prohibition will be repealed by Long - of that, there is little question; his power base amongst disenfranchised Southron poor whites will demand it. And this plays into his own sympathy (though likely muted and hid) for the poor freedman as well.
But until then, it will be used as a form of social control and we will probably see Southron jails swell with the accused (black and poor whites) who violate the laws.
In this, it will be largely in accord with OTL trends, where Prohibition was preached in the South of controlling both of these populations.
What is interesting, is that Prohibition may he a shared experience which actually pushes poor Blacks and White together- a fact which could actually lead to its repeal as elites realise "Oh shit, this is NOT how we planned on this going. It's pushing our enemies together and now they're all gonna vote and support Long"
Postwar elites also probably don’t want drunk workers, either.
May soft drinks like Coke, Dr. Pepper and others were created by local Pharmacists to sell instead of 'Hard Liquor' and attract family customers. Some workplaces may allow weak beer since you did not drink the water but being drunk gets you fired.