Yes; I was just making the point that Vladivostok was not a factor in Russia's strategy toward conquering Siberia at the current time ITTL.
Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
- Start date
Chapter 103: Asiatic Northern War Part III - The Squeeze of Haishenwei
Chapter 103: Asiatic Northern War Part III - The Squeeze of Haishenwei
As spring approached, Sakuma Moritora planned his next moves from the reconstructed fortifications at the confluence of the Amur and Songhua rivers. To better combat the forces of Gutai and Gyeongseon, he needed more men. To that end, he sought to march southwards to Haishenwei, recently captured by the Japanese under Sassa Katsutoyo, and unite with the Japanese army of 8,000 before moving on in the war against the Lesser Jin and their peninsular ally. As he made his final preparations and established a permanent garrison at the newly titled Kuromatsu Castle (黒松城), however, Moritora would be preceded by the enemy, who quickly responded to the loss of the key warm water port. Gutai himself would lead an army of 20,000 Jurchens towards the port, joined along the way by 12,000 Joseon troops sent by Hanseong. Meanwhile, Gyeon Be-up designated a small fleet to blockade the port and attempt to bombard the Japanese out of the port. Katsutoyo was quickly alerted of the enemy’s movements when a portion of his men who had occupied the countryside surrounding the port were attacked and driven back into Haishenwei. Eventually, the Joseon fleet could also be seen sailing from the horizon. Moritora himself was notified of these developments by Amur Jurchen sentries that had spied on Gutai’s horde, successfully disguising themselves and evading exposure. He quickly hurried south and alerted Bahai, who was raising a large army near Nurgan.
The Jin-Joseon squeeze of Haishenwei commenced on April 19th. The Japanese warships present at the port held off the enemy ships for a few hours, exchanging blows of smoke and powder until one by one they were either boarded and seized or sunk. Their noble sacrifice allowed Katsutoyo to focus his attention on the land attack, however, and on the first day the Japanese successfully disrupted attempts by the Joseon troops to set up adequate siege weapons. This wasn’t helped by the uselessness of many Jurchen warriors who only knew how to fight as horse archers or lancers on horseback. The following days, however, saw the Japanese begin to struggle as they now faced active assaults from both sides. The sea defenses quickly began to fall apart and one of the enemy ships even attempted an amphibious landing, though it was vigorously rebuffed by Katsutoyo’s men. On land, the Japanese could not prevent the enemy from establishing their siege weaponry. Although Haishenwei had a sizable garrison, the pincer attack was effective and it looked like the port would fall within a week.
This assumption would be challenged with the arrival of Moritora and his army of 14,000, consisting of 5,500 Japanese infantry and cavalry, 8,000 Amur Jurchens, and 500 Ainu cavalry along with a handful of cannons. Gutai, despite already besieging Haishenwei, prepared to confront the enemy, confident that his numbers would win the day and simultaneously continue to pressure Katsutoyo’s men. 24,000 were fielded against the Japanese field army, composed of 8,000 Joseonites and 16,000 Jurchens. 4,000 Jurchen horse archers screened the army, while a mix of Joseon and Jurchen infantry concentrated in the center. Heavy Joseon cavalry, the elite of the kingdom’s military, manned the wings alongside Gutai’s best horsemen while more Jurchen cavalry made up the rest of the wings and the center. Gutai himself would oversee the battle surrounded by his guards and reserves. Meanwhile, on the Japanese-Amur side, 3,000 horse archers similarly screened the rest of the army. 4,000 Japanese musketeers commanded by Mogami Yoshisato formed the center backed by 1,000 Jurchen melee infantry, while Moritora surrounded himself with his Ainu cavalry, Oshu warriors, and supporting Jurchen horsemen on the left. The right, meanwhile, was composed entirely of Jurchen horse archers and lancers led by young chieftain Bakedu. The battle would take place in the vicinity of Lake Bogatoye just north of the port on April 26th.
The Jin-Joseon squeeze of Haishenwei commenced on April 19th. The Japanese warships present at the port held off the enemy ships for a few hours, exchanging blows of smoke and powder until one by one they were either boarded and seized or sunk. Their noble sacrifice allowed Katsutoyo to focus his attention on the land attack, however, and on the first day the Japanese successfully disrupted attempts by the Joseon troops to set up adequate siege weapons. This wasn’t helped by the uselessness of many Jurchen warriors who only knew how to fight as horse archers or lancers on horseback. The following days, however, saw the Japanese begin to struggle as they now faced active assaults from both sides. The sea defenses quickly began to fall apart and one of the enemy ships even attempted an amphibious landing, though it was vigorously rebuffed by Katsutoyo’s men. On land, the Japanese could not prevent the enemy from establishing their siege weaponry. Although Haishenwei had a sizable garrison, the pincer attack was effective and it looked like the port would fall within a week.
This assumption would be challenged with the arrival of Moritora and his army of 14,000, consisting of 5,500 Japanese infantry and cavalry, 8,000 Amur Jurchens, and 500 Ainu cavalry along with a handful of cannons. Gutai, despite already besieging Haishenwei, prepared to confront the enemy, confident that his numbers would win the day and simultaneously continue to pressure Katsutoyo’s men. 24,000 were fielded against the Japanese field army, composed of 8,000 Joseonites and 16,000 Jurchens. 4,000 Jurchen horse archers screened the army, while a mix of Joseon and Jurchen infantry concentrated in the center. Heavy Joseon cavalry, the elite of the kingdom’s military, manned the wings alongside Gutai’s best horsemen while more Jurchen cavalry made up the rest of the wings and the center. Gutai himself would oversee the battle surrounded by his guards and reserves. Meanwhile, on the Japanese-Amur side, 3,000 horse archers similarly screened the rest of the army. 4,000 Japanese musketeers commanded by Mogami Yoshisato formed the center backed by 1,000 Jurchen melee infantry, while Moritora surrounded himself with his Ainu cavalry, Oshu warriors, and supporting Jurchen horsemen on the left. The right, meanwhile, was composed entirely of Jurchen horse archers and lancers led by young chieftain Bakedu. The battle would take place in the vicinity of Lake Bogatoye just north of the port on April 26th.
Salmon = Japanese, Green = Amur, Blue = Joseon, Brown = Lesser Jin
The battle began with the horse archers at the frontlines skirmishing with one another. As the outnumbered Amur Jurchens began to break, the Japanese center moved forward, firing swift volleys upon the unsuspecting enemy who quickly retreated and melted into their fellow ranks. Both sides then initiated a general charge. On the Japanese left, Moritora as usual directly led his men towards the enemy cavalry. Despite being outnumbered 2 to 1, the skill and prowess of the Japanese cavalry allowed them to hold their own, their pistols surprising many horses. Similarly to how they functioned as shock infantry in the Manji War, Ainu cavalry swung around their long harpoons and several Jurchens fell victim to impalement by the Ainu harpoons. A similar case was taking place in the middle, where the discipline and experience of the Japanese musketeers allowed the Japanese to stand their ground. The situation was very different on the Japanese right where the Jin-Joseon cavalry almost immediately began to push back the Amur Jurchens. Eventually, their sheer numbers won the day and the main Amur Jurchen contingent began a full retreat, and they turned in anticipation of flanking and routing the hypothetically vulnerable Japanese infantry. Other developments on the battlefield, however, had taken place that would not allow such a clean sweep by Gutai’s army. To shore up the center, the Amur infantry reserves had joined the battle and this proved decisive as the Jin-Joseon infantry also broke into a retreat, buckling under intense pressure. Although Gutai’s reserve cavalry attempted to salvage the situation, they were no match for the cannonfire and musket volleys of the Japanese. This enabled some of the infantry to respond to the Jin-Joseon right’s momentum as they split off from the main body and reinforced the line of cannons being turned towards the impending flanking cavalry charge. This worked and Jin general Laihu decided to retreat and protect his khan’s position. The Japanese infantry core also retreated in response, and the battle began to end. Moritora was still fighting intensely against the Jin-Joseon right but both sides would withdraw as soon as they saw everyone else cease fighting and retreat.
The battle ended in a draw. Casualties mounted to 2,500 for the Japanese-Amur army and 3,000 for the Jin-Joseon army. However, while Moritora had held his own against a larger army, he could not afford as many casualties and had failed to rout the khan’s force. Meanwhile, the diversion of men enabled Katsutoyo to skirmish and weaken the land besiegers but his men were quickly running out of provisions and the bombardments from the sea remained relentless. Hearing the news of the Battle of Bogatoye only confirmed his worst fears. Therefore, Katsutoyo devised a course of action that would save as many of his men’s lives as possible. He charged his uncle Katsutane (佐々勝種) with escorting the bulk of the army under the cover of darkness. 200 men, including himself, however, would remain to torch the dock and sally out on land. On the morning of April 29th, after Katsutane had secretly left along with 5,000 men, Katsutoyo executed his own role in his plan and would ultimately commit seppuku in the port, symbolically taking responsibility for his failure to hold down Haishenwei. He was only 32. With his death and the Japanese abandonment of the port, Haishenwei was taken back by the Lesser Jin.
Sassa Katsutane successfully escorted the survivors to Sakuma Moritora’s camp, albeit bringing bad news. A shocked Moritora accepted the hair knot of Katsutoyo with sorrow and promised to live and win the war so that it could be presented to Katsutoyo’s widow. After this, Moritora retreated north once again, hoping to gather more men and coalesce forces with Bahai. Beyond the surroundings of Haishenwei, the forces of the Lesser Jin and Joseon continued to gradually conquer the Amur river valley and much work needed to be done to not only defend the Amur Khanate’s remaining territories but also drive the enemy out. What no one knew at the time though was that a new player was about to enter the fray in the region, a force beholden to neither side.
Last edited:
Great update. Wonder who the new player is? Tsarist Russia? Ming China? Those are the only two that come to mind.
This was in response to a bunch of other people. Russia going all in for what would be the Far East relatively quickly seems odd, to say the least. There's no real reason for Russia to be making plays for the Amur by even the late 1600's, Depending on what was or wasn't done with Russia, they have bigger fish to fry. Even without the Time of Troubles, with its resulting civil wars, invasions, and general instability there are the Ottomans via the Crimean Khanate, Sweden, and Poland-Lithuania. They are an odd choice for an 'antagonist' nation at this stage because it's them in a conflict that gets them no benefits. Russia always had decent access to China through Xinjiang or they even negotiated something through the Northern Yuan.
@Ambassador Huntsman I think you could do better with the names of some wars. The Asaiatic Northern War is an odd name in an East Asian context, and even if happens to be a TL written by 'Western' eyes, it still feels off. You could use the Imjin War as a model, where it's known by several sides as a conflict in XYZ era or somesuch. Same with the Great Oda Civil War, it would just be the *Insert name of Japanese era* War similar to the Onin War.
@Ambassador Huntsman I think you could do better with the names of some wars. The Asaiatic Northern War is an odd name in an East Asian context, and even if happens to be a TL written by 'Western' eyes, it still feels off. You could use the Imjin War as a model, where it's known by several sides as a conflict in XYZ era or somesuch. Same with the Great Oda Civil War, it would just be the *Insert name of Japanese era* War similar to the Onin War.
The Dutch? Everyone else (Yuan, Ming, Russia) is an established power in that region and are all dealing with there own wars to boot.
That might have been a good unofficial name for the Japanese still unused to fighting in the cold Amur river valley.
But it won’t fit given the fighting in the Tsushima straight.
The Great Jurchen War would be more accurate
I mean you could go with the Amur River War or Amurugawa no Ran. A simple solution could be, assuming Japanese Era names are still roughly OTL somehow there's always the Kanbun War, For Korea, using possibly half-assed math to try and work in a formula for Sextagonal cycle names, you could get the Geongjin War for Korea.
Haishenwei being taken back by the Joseon is really fun to see, and the war is just a treat to watch! The Russian expedition has rolled in too, and I wonder how they would shape the Amur basin when the war's over would be very interesting, especially if they become an important minority in the region.
Defo hope the Joseon win it but I'm not sure if that's exactly what's going to happen...
In otl the Russians reached the Amur in 1640, and if anything more and more Russians have gone and are making more of an impact. The entrance of the Russians into the conflict isn't that the Russians would be sending armies around, it'd more be like the Cossacks entering the conflict piecemeal and the Russians reacting to the Cossacks' movements and maybe sending assistance or diplomats.
We'd prob get the Russians sign an ittl treaty of Nerchinsk between them and Joseon, Japan and Ming China when the war's over where their spheres of influence they care about at that time's carved out between the four powers.
eh I could see the Russians calling it that make making it the name that's known by the Europeans. The Russians would definitely be the main source of information the Europeans get from the conflict (other than Japanese tradesmen trading with the Dutch/British) but I do think it should be viewed under a Russian lens just as much as it is under an Asian one.
Last edited:
And now I know who the new force is without having read the update in detail (Haishenwei = Vladivostok and this are enough
)According to Wikipedia the Russian conquest of Siberia took place between 1580 and 1778 so yes.
Russian conquest of Siberia - Wikipedia
I accept your premise with the Great Oda Civil War. I retroactively changed it to the Manji War (万治の乱). In terms of the Asiatic Northern War, it's juxtapositioning the various Northern Wars in northern Europe.
Where exactly is Lake Bogatoye? I'm having trouble finding it on a map. That name sounds rather Russian.
It's on the same peninsula as Haishenwei. Zoom in close on Google Maps.
Chapter 104: Asiatic Northern War Part IV - The Russian Intervention
Chapter 104: Asiatic Northern War Part IV - The Russian Intervention
After winning a modest victory in the Second Northern War, Moscow gave a serious glance at its far eastern territories for the first time in a while. Through the Amur Intervention by the Japanese, the Russians were handed their first definitive defeats in their race in their conquest of what would become known as Siberia, an expansive region from the Ural Mountains to the Pacific Ocean. Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich had continued this effort under this reign and was frustrated at what he saw as Azuchi’s underhandedness while his hands were tied up elsewhere. At the same time, however, the furthest reaches of Siberia were punishable cold and remote from significant Russian settlements, making a concerted military effort in the region a fantasy. Therefore, Moscow-aligned Cossacks had led recent endeavors into the far east alongside explorers. This would be the approach Alexei would take in regaining lost strength in the region, particularly as the Japanese themselves also only had a small if influential presence for similar reasons. Efforts began in 1665 when Alexei resumed sending small bands of Cossacks to not only support existing Russian outposts but also attack the Japanese-backed Amur Khanate and its borderlands. Cossacks even clashed with the Japanese in 1666.
17th century Cossack
Both a problem and an opportunity emerged with the outbreak of war between the Japanese-backed Amur Khanate and the Joseon-supported Lesser Jin. On the one hand, the conflict meant that the military presence in the area of both sides would dramatically increase. On the other hand, if the war prolonged, the armies of both sides could be too preoccupied or exhausted to respond to calculated raids and sorties by the Russians. This state of affairs prompted an unusual decision by the Russians, which was to pardon an exiled Cossack and former Polish noble who had recently been declared an outlaw for murdering the voivode of Ilimsk. Nikifor Chernigovsky had done this because the voivode, Lawrentij Obuhov, had raped his daughter. It was based on this reasoning that his status as an outlaw was reversed in 1666 despite the protests of many as it quickly became clear that a person like Chernigovksy would be necessary for a revival of Russian fortunes in the Amur River valley.
Once in command, Chernigovsky gathered a few thousand Cossacks and Russians and set his eyes on Albazin, which had only so recently been seized by the Jin from the Amur Khanate. The army that took the fortress, however, had left the area to conquer the rest of the Amur river valley and ultimately Kuromatsu Castle. Albazin was left with a modest garrison as there was no expectation of it being retaken by the Amur Jurchens or the Japanese. Chernigovsky would learn of this fact ahead of this and prepared to take full advantage of the situation. On the night of June 22nd, 1667, the Russians launched a surprise assault upon the fortress, using ladders to scale the walls under the cover of darkness. As Albazin was originally built by Russia, Chernigovsky had brought along a few men who had been forced out by the Japanese during the Amur Intervention and so still remembered the layout of the fortress and could pinpoint the vulnerable spots of Albazin. When this was set, a few dozen men sneaked into the fortress, some beginning to fight the garrison while others opened the gates to allow the rest to charge into Albazin directly. Despite this clever move, Albazin would take two days to fully take as surviving members of the garrison gathered in the main citadel where they fought off until nearly the entirety of the 1,000-strong garrison lay dead. The Russians were back in the game.
The small size of the Russian force and low expectations of further reinforcements halted succeeding offensives by Chernigovsky and his contingent of Russians and Cossacks. Nevertheless, this “Russian Intervention” into the Asiatic Northern War would have a profound influence on the course of the war. The Jin-Joseon army that had begun marching southwards towards Kuromatsu Castle was quickly alerted of the fall of Albazin and immediately reversed course, determined to retake the key fortress. This in turn relieved pressure on Sakuma Moritora, who had been preparing for a pincer move from both the north and south, and gave him more time to gather provisions and work on his army’s logistics. In the long run, it would also allow his army to coalesce with Bahai as the latter finally gathered an army of 20,000 in Nurgan and departed his temporary capital around the same time the Russian intervention into the war commenced. Although there were those who felt that a Japanese-Amur force should be sent to Albazin as well to prevent the Russians from re-establishing a firm foothold in the region, this was shot down in favor of focusing all efforts towards defeating the Lesser Jin and their Joseonite backer. For now, Chernigovsky could serve as a distraction for the Lesser Jin to the benefit of Bahai and the Japanese.
In the meantime, Jin-Joseon forces returned to Albazin and began yet another siege. Ever since the capture of Albazin, Chernigovsky had made efforts to establish friendly relations with the local peoples. Thus, the garrison had managed to procure a large reserve of provisions. As they began to be besieged from late July, the Cossacks avoided making offensive moves during the day and instead conducted night raids upon the often unsuspecting Joseonites and Jurchens. These routine sorties weakened their resolve, their morale already wavering due to exhaustion from continuous marches. The siege would last for a month before the Jin-Joseon besiegers received an order from Gutai to abandon the siege and move southwards as quickly as possible to aid him against Moritora and Bahai, as the Amur Jurchens and the Japanese began to regain lost momentum and territory. It would be a while before Chernigovsky would have to defend Albazin again from any major power in the region.
On paper, the “Russian Intervention” was small and insignificant, resulting in the capture of Albazin and its surroundings. Chernigovsky lacked a large army to make further military offensives and would be limited in what he could do. Nevertheless, he had taken advantage of the regional chaos the war had created to seize a sizable fortification from where a new foundation could be established. With the time and space he had gained and earned, Chernigovsky would do just that. Additionally, his campaign had unintentionally disrupted the flow of events in favor of the Amur Khanate and the Japanese, and it can be argued that future events could’ve ended more favorably for Joseon and the Lesser Jin khanate had the Russians not taken Albazin. Whatever might’ve happened, Chernigovsky helped make Russia a direct player in the region once again and he would have a big role in the Amur river valley for years to come.
Last edited: