Our Fractured Crown: An Eastern Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Averious
- Start date
A lot is rightly being made of the cool title Prince of Hellas and the Golden Fleece (perfect for for a Hellenic knightly order), but it’s also cool seeing a match to the Komnenoi in Trebizond. Under the right circumstances, it would be lovely to see that region and that family rejoin the empire.
Neat seeing the renewed ties with Montferrat blooming too!
Neat seeing the renewed ties with Montferrat blooming too!
Sorry but this is pure science fiction, if not even HRE Sigismund a few decades later ( to be precise in 1406/ 1410 ) managed to defeat the Serenissima, how can the Habsburgs be able to do so at this moment ?, considering that they would be busy with the war in Switzerland ( you know William Tell ect ) it is more likely that Venice will be militarily defeated on land by a Visconti - Della Scala coalition, but that the city will still remain impregnable ( at the time of the 4th Crusade, Venice could easily deploy more than 70 galleys at the same time if forced, not even Genoa can compete without receiving important help to distract Venice from concentrating solely on naval battles )
Last edited:
honestly I would prefer to see Venice have a trajectory similar than Otl, since seriously what is this thirst for revenge towards her in the TLs about East Rome ?, I can understand avenging the 4th crusade, but hoping that the city gets sacked or worse, is really over the top, in short, what should Italians say to all the peoples who have devastated and plundered the peninsula ( starting from the Goths, passing through the Rhomanois, the Lombards and above all the French ) to wish them to disappear from the history of humanity ?, it seems like a rather bad thing to think, let alone say, so why don't we hope that the Paleologos manage to militarily defeat Venice ( so as to drive them out of the Aegean and make them understand that they are no longer the hosts, but only guests of Constantinople ) is that enough ?
p.s
@Averious, that thype of Romanitas brings goodness George of Trebisond to Italy ?, given that the Renaissance technically already began at least a few years ago, is that it is mainly based on the rediscovery of classical works in Latin, previously considered uninteresting or not famous, perhaps, you are referring to the competence to correctly translate the numerous works of Hellenistic authors ? 😜😉
Last edited:
I hope for a good revenge. Nothing over the top, but the venetians need to be humbled and the romans to take back what was stolen from them
patience, I tried, each to their own, then I can dream of a France that collapses into internal anarchy before the Italian wars begin, a Justinian who dies very badly, so as to avoid the Gothic wars ( better to have Italy in the hands of the ""barbarians"" than to become a post-apocalyptic region for decades, without the Romans ( of Constantinople ) really doing something to defend us ( as an Italian, you can understand that perhaps I have a very slight poisonous tooth towards them ) but rather abandoning us to our fate ( except when they had to bleed us dry with taxes, that's why they remembered that the peninsula still existed ), that Frederick II unified the region, Charlemagne's empire not collapsing or the WRE itself surviving, etc.
Last edited:
for that all that is needed are good alliances ( Genoa, Verona and Milan first of all ) and to remove from their hands, the jewel of the Empire : Crete, this should already be a bad wake-up call for the Serenissima, which should make them understand that things are changing for them ( it's not for the better, so it would be right to adapt to the new scenario )
Last edited:
Glad you've enjoyed it!
This is correct.
George of Trebizond would bring Roman culture, language and so forth to the Italians--he is primarily known for translationing various Classical Works into Latin, and akin--as well as fostering a fondness for Rome (ERE) through his various noble friendships, and tutelages, in Italy throughout his life.
What probably isn't understood is just how deeply Venice affected the Roman psyche with the 4th Crusade.
To paint a picture; Constantinople was a literal open air museum of all sorts of Classical Greek, and Roman, culture--from thousands of bronze statues of exquisite beauty, to just as many mosaics, and icons, and more--all of it beautiful. You could not walk a step in the Queen of Cities without being struck with something beautiful from the past.
The City had never been taken by an enemy--not in her, by then, nearly 900 years of existence as Nova Roma; she had never been sacked, never been wounded. To walk the City streets was to feel Roman--because you had a complete, undeniable, connection to the past.
And this is all aside from the hundreds of priceless Christian relics that filled Constantinople's churches and akin; connecting the City deeply to their faith, and their mindset as God's Chosen People.
And then the 4th Crusade changed all of that.
Every single bronze statue--thousands, save two, that we know of, would be melted down for cheap coins by the Crusaders--every church ransacked, and ripped to pieces--mosaics defaced, women and children raped and killed in their own homes, priests decapitated in their own churches--the very Roman identity of the City was brutally cut apart and either carted off as spoils, or melted down for cheap coins.
It's religious relics? Spread as far as France.
Her few surviving artefacts besides? Sitting in Venice, and across Italy.
By the time Michael VIII rode back into Constantinople in 1261 the City was a husk--dead in all but name; to call it Roman would be a bit of a sick joke.
The Romans will never, not truly, get back their identity until Venice is made to pay in full for what was done to Constantinople--and that is exactly what is going to happen.
As for allies? Genoa is dead; it has been partitioned--with Montferrat gobbling up most of her assets, including Genoa itself. Montferrat has in-effect replaced Genoa, and is itself a friend of the Romans.
Last edited:
Book 2; 1364 to 1366 - The First Great Roman-Latin War, Part One
"You're a Latin, aren't you Reynard," the Prince of Hellas mused, leaning on the pommel of his blade as he looked across at the sandy-haired Knight; a man about a decade his senior--he was prodding him.
"Yes, and your sworn-brother, my Greek Prince," Sir Reynard Durand ribbed, offering a soft smirk, which Andronikos quickly matched; drawing himself up to his full height--he was tall already, at only 16, with dark blue eyes, olive skin, and overly curly auburn hair.
Both men were clean-shaven and broad-shouldered.
"You bring it up why, my Prince?" Reynard pressed, raising a brow, to which Andronikos dramatically stepped forward, and pressed two fingers into the map before them, as they stood in an open-air camp, surrounded by the hustle and bustle of soldiers moving back and forth.
They were in the borderlands between Thessaly and Attica; readying to march against the 'Duchy of Athens' and firmly reunite the mainland of Rhomania.
"Because you'd know how they think; you were raised in their manner," the Prince responded; his manner was nonchalant and uncaring--he lacked the austereness of his grandfather or the bluntness (some might say disguised anger) of his father.
"How do you expect them to react when we cross through Thermopylae, not as a mythical concept, but in reality? Will they muster men? Will they be waiting for us?" Andronikos continued, a brow raised questioningly.
Reynard chuckled, and waved his hand dismissively, "They'll not even consider it; they're uncouth Iberians, they don't even know a 'Thermopylae' exists, let alone that they could break off our advance with a mere '300 Spartans' there," came the reply, and Andronikos couldn't help but chuckle in turn, just as George of Aetolia walked in, and offered a look to both his fellow sworn-brothers.
"The men are ready my Prince,"
1364 to 1366
Venice was a much more competent enemy than Genoa had been; their navy more than capable of competing with that of the Romans across the Aegean, thus quickly shuttering supplies to Crete from the Empire.
The Latins of the Duchy of Athens too weren't idle; they'd attempted to raid into Morea several times by March, but had been turned back again, and again, at Corinth, although at great cost each time to the Romans.
Rather than take any more, Prince Andronikos would lead an army of roughly 10,000 directly through the Hot Gates of Thermopylae; striking deep into Attica, although the Latins had expected something like this; clashing with the Romans across Northern Attica throughout March; stalling their advance.
As this went on, Sir Reynard Durand would take a ship across the Gulf of Corinth to Morea, and from there rally the soldiers of the peninsula; numbering around 6,000, which he then moved across the Isthmus of Corinth--directly threatening the heartlands of the Duchy of Athens in one stroke.
Megara blocked the way though; a well-fortified and ancient site that forced Reynard to lay it to siege in late March--lest he get cut off in passing it. To tighten the siege, Reynard would lead the quick capture of the coastlands nearby Megara; robbing it of any attempts by the Latins to send supplies by ship.
To finalise this, the Knight would also order the construction of a simple fortification to the north of the Isthmus, on the shores of the Gulf of Corinth; intending to block off any sort of motions by the Latins.
The siege would drag on, as in May the Romans under Prince Andronikos would capture the city of Krissa; giving them access to the environs of Thebes, which Andronikos would quickly exploit--only to be stonewalled yet again by a well-managed Latin counter-offensive under the Vicar-General of the Duchy, Roger de Lluria. Twice the two would clash directly in battle within the lands of Boetia, but nothing would come of it.
May would pass, and June would come; the siege of Megara had stalled, and Andronikos was still being held back by de Lluria--while in Crete what had been intended as the quick reconquest of the city of Candia by the Venetians had too stalled, with the supplies delivered before the lines were cut having bolstered the defences enough to stymie the besiegers.
It would only be in August that Prince Andronikos had mustered enough men and material to put Thebes under siege; having to fight off constant raids by de Lluria all the while.
All three sieges would continue across the year, and into the next; with Megara breaking first in late February 1365--allowing Reynard to march his forces directly against Thebes to join Andronikos. With the added pressure, Thebes falls in less than a month; submitting to the Romans in March 1365.
As this goes on, the Emperor would be forced from Constantinople in June due to the increased raids by Murad into Roman Anatolia; one of Nikephoros' generals having been defeated badly, and thus the situation in John's eyes requiring his personal attention.
He would spend the next year and a half dealing with Murad's raids; unable to do much more than stave them off with so much of the army busy in Athens.
With Thebes taken, the Duchy of Athens only had Athens itself, and the Piraeus, on the mainland, alongside the isles of Salamis and Aegina--the latter two would be targeted next, as Reynard would muster a makeshift 'Hellas Fleet' to invade the two isles in April--returning to the mainland in June by the skin of his teeth, having barely avoided the Venetian Navy.
In July 1365 the two would then put Negroponte under siege; the Venetian city, and Venetian-held lands of Euboea, having been a great aid to de Lluria, who was now forced to lick his wounds in southern Attica.
Negroponte would prove to be an utter hassle; necessitating the aid of the Imperial Fleet to crush several Venetian supply efforts--before finally Andronikos had enough, and ordered the city proper bombarded, much to Reynard's displeasure.
Still, it would take until December before Negroponte finally gave in; with the Romans resting there tentatively for a week, before marching into Euboea, which shortly thereafter quickly surrendered.
Now all that was left was Athens and Piraeus.
Come January 1366, after mustering all they could in a reasonable time, Andronikos and Reynard would devise the fall of the Duchy--splitting their armies, with Reynard besieging Piraeus, and Andronikos Athens itself; intent on starving Athens of aid from her historic port.
Yet, the two would not break; the sieges dragged on--and on, and on; Andronikos badly wounded in a sortie headed by de Lluria, and thus forced to take a backseat at Athens. Venice, by now well into the war, and now fully aided by Sicily, which landed troops in Morea, would cause further problems.
While Venice's fleet kept the Piraeus supplied, the Sicilians ravaged the countryside of Morea--forcing Reynard to take a force back to the peninsula, as Andronikos stepped up to lead both sieges, despite his injuries--riding back and forth.
The Sicilians were led by Philip II, Prince of Taranto, titular Emperor of Constantinople and titular Prince of Achaea--who had joined the invasion alongside his retinue in a bid to regain his lands.
Reynard was forced to strip Morea of much of its garrison to meet them on the field--resulting in the Battle of Akova in April 1366, which saw Philip trampled to death in a charge, and Reynard badly wounded--but the Romans victorious. Reynard's young son, Roger Durand, would take over for his father, and lead the massacre of the fleeing Sicilians thereafter throughout late April.
News came then that further rocked the Romans, as they tried to muster morale from their close victory; Candia had finally fallen in June--and the Imperial Fleet had been soundly defeated at the Battle of Andros shortly thereafter; forcing them to flee to Lesbos.
In the aftermath of this, Basil of Lesbos would have the admiral in charge hung and then thrown in the sea--personally taking charge of the Fleet, and making moves to muster it once more.
Prince Manuel Palaiologos, now 15, would at his still-embattled father's request send a letter to his kinsman John II Palaeologus-Montferrat--asking for aid.
After much deliberation, Montferrat would finally answer the call in August 1366; mustering much of the fleet they'd 'inherited' from the Genoese and sailing it from their ports in Liguria and Corsica--meeting, and beating, detachments of the Venetian Fleet throughout the remaining year.
With the aid of the Montferratians, Basil of Lesbos would having enough breathing room to finally muster the Imperial Fleet in full again--meeting the Venetians, while aided by Montferrat, in the Battle of Naxos in September 1366.
The Battle took place over several days; costing all three sides dearly--but by the end, the Roman-Montferrat fleet had won, and the Venetians were firmly forced to flee from the Aegean.
2/3rds of the Imperial Fleet was gone, forcing Prince Manuel to pay out a donative to the Montferratians in order to assuage the stresses of thereafter being leaned on so heavily, as throughout October, and November, Basil would lead several naval invasions of the 'Duchy of Naxos'--finally ending the Duchy with the taking of Naxos itself by storm in early December 1366.
Finally, on December 24th 1366, de Lluria would surrender Athens, and the Piraeus to Prince Andronikos in a chivalric gesture, knowing he was cut off, and doomed; the Romans having a tense but cordial feast in Athens alongside de Lluria and his men for Christmas.
Come the New Year, the Catalans, and the broader Latins able and wanting to leave, would; taking to ships and departing Athens for good.
It is said that, as he departed, de Lluria would nickname Prince Andronikos 'the Eagle'--for his mannerisms, and seeming embodiment of the Empire he was Crown-Prince of.
The nickname would stick.
"Yes, and your sworn-brother, my Greek Prince," Sir Reynard Durand ribbed, offering a soft smirk, which Andronikos quickly matched; drawing himself up to his full height--he was tall already, at only 16, with dark blue eyes, olive skin, and overly curly auburn hair.
Both men were clean-shaven and broad-shouldered.
"You bring it up why, my Prince?" Reynard pressed, raising a brow, to which Andronikos dramatically stepped forward, and pressed two fingers into the map before them, as they stood in an open-air camp, surrounded by the hustle and bustle of soldiers moving back and forth.
They were in the borderlands between Thessaly and Attica; readying to march against the 'Duchy of Athens' and firmly reunite the mainland of Rhomania.
"Because you'd know how they think; you were raised in their manner," the Prince responded; his manner was nonchalant and uncaring--he lacked the austereness of his grandfather or the bluntness (some might say disguised anger) of his father.
"How do you expect them to react when we cross through Thermopylae, not as a mythical concept, but in reality? Will they muster men? Will they be waiting for us?" Andronikos continued, a brow raised questioningly.
Reynard chuckled, and waved his hand dismissively, "They'll not even consider it; they're uncouth Iberians, they don't even know a 'Thermopylae' exists, let alone that they could break off our advance with a mere '300 Spartans' there," came the reply, and Andronikos couldn't help but chuckle in turn, just as George of Aetolia walked in, and offered a look to both his fellow sworn-brothers.
"The men are ready my Prince,"
1364 to 1366
Venice was a much more competent enemy than Genoa had been; their navy more than capable of competing with that of the Romans across the Aegean, thus quickly shuttering supplies to Crete from the Empire.
The Latins of the Duchy of Athens too weren't idle; they'd attempted to raid into Morea several times by March, but had been turned back again, and again, at Corinth, although at great cost each time to the Romans.
Rather than take any more, Prince Andronikos would lead an army of roughly 10,000 directly through the Hot Gates of Thermopylae; striking deep into Attica, although the Latins had expected something like this; clashing with the Romans across Northern Attica throughout March; stalling their advance.
As this went on, Sir Reynard Durand would take a ship across the Gulf of Corinth to Morea, and from there rally the soldiers of the peninsula; numbering around 6,000, which he then moved across the Isthmus of Corinth--directly threatening the heartlands of the Duchy of Athens in one stroke.
Megara blocked the way though; a well-fortified and ancient site that forced Reynard to lay it to siege in late March--lest he get cut off in passing it. To tighten the siege, Reynard would lead the quick capture of the coastlands nearby Megara; robbing it of any attempts by the Latins to send supplies by ship.
To finalise this, the Knight would also order the construction of a simple fortification to the north of the Isthmus, on the shores of the Gulf of Corinth; intending to block off any sort of motions by the Latins.
The siege would drag on, as in May the Romans under Prince Andronikos would capture the city of Krissa; giving them access to the environs of Thebes, which Andronikos would quickly exploit--only to be stonewalled yet again by a well-managed Latin counter-offensive under the Vicar-General of the Duchy, Roger de Lluria. Twice the two would clash directly in battle within the lands of Boetia, but nothing would come of it.
May would pass, and June would come; the siege of Megara had stalled, and Andronikos was still being held back by de Lluria--while in Crete what had been intended as the quick reconquest of the city of Candia by the Venetians had too stalled, with the supplies delivered before the lines were cut having bolstered the defences enough to stymie the besiegers.
It would only be in August that Prince Andronikos had mustered enough men and material to put Thebes under siege; having to fight off constant raids by de Lluria all the while.
All three sieges would continue across the year, and into the next; with Megara breaking first in late February 1365--allowing Reynard to march his forces directly against Thebes to join Andronikos. With the added pressure, Thebes falls in less than a month; submitting to the Romans in March 1365.
As this goes on, the Emperor would be forced from Constantinople in June due to the increased raids by Murad into Roman Anatolia; one of Nikephoros' generals having been defeated badly, and thus the situation in John's eyes requiring his personal attention.
He would spend the next year and a half dealing with Murad's raids; unable to do much more than stave them off with so much of the army busy in Athens.
With Thebes taken, the Duchy of Athens only had Athens itself, and the Piraeus, on the mainland, alongside the isles of Salamis and Aegina--the latter two would be targeted next, as Reynard would muster a makeshift 'Hellas Fleet' to invade the two isles in April--returning to the mainland in June by the skin of his teeth, having barely avoided the Venetian Navy.
In July 1365 the two would then put Negroponte under siege; the Venetian city, and Venetian-held lands of Euboea, having been a great aid to de Lluria, who was now forced to lick his wounds in southern Attica.
Negroponte would prove to be an utter hassle; necessitating the aid of the Imperial Fleet to crush several Venetian supply efforts--before finally Andronikos had enough, and ordered the city proper bombarded, much to Reynard's displeasure.
Still, it would take until December before Negroponte finally gave in; with the Romans resting there tentatively for a week, before marching into Euboea, which shortly thereafter quickly surrendered.
Now all that was left was Athens and Piraeus.
Come January 1366, after mustering all they could in a reasonable time, Andronikos and Reynard would devise the fall of the Duchy--splitting their armies, with Reynard besieging Piraeus, and Andronikos Athens itself; intent on starving Athens of aid from her historic port.
Yet, the two would not break; the sieges dragged on--and on, and on; Andronikos badly wounded in a sortie headed by de Lluria, and thus forced to take a backseat at Athens. Venice, by now well into the war, and now fully aided by Sicily, which landed troops in Morea, would cause further problems.
While Venice's fleet kept the Piraeus supplied, the Sicilians ravaged the countryside of Morea--forcing Reynard to take a force back to the peninsula, as Andronikos stepped up to lead both sieges, despite his injuries--riding back and forth.
The Sicilians were led by Philip II, Prince of Taranto, titular Emperor of Constantinople and titular Prince of Achaea--who had joined the invasion alongside his retinue in a bid to regain his lands.
Reynard was forced to strip Morea of much of its garrison to meet them on the field--resulting in the Battle of Akova in April 1366, which saw Philip trampled to death in a charge, and Reynard badly wounded--but the Romans victorious. Reynard's young son, Roger Durand, would take over for his father, and lead the massacre of the fleeing Sicilians thereafter throughout late April.
News came then that further rocked the Romans, as they tried to muster morale from their close victory; Candia had finally fallen in June--and the Imperial Fleet had been soundly defeated at the Battle of Andros shortly thereafter; forcing them to flee to Lesbos.
In the aftermath of this, Basil of Lesbos would have the admiral in charge hung and then thrown in the sea--personally taking charge of the Fleet, and making moves to muster it once more.
Prince Manuel Palaiologos, now 15, would at his still-embattled father's request send a letter to his kinsman John II Palaeologus-Montferrat--asking for aid.
After much deliberation, Montferrat would finally answer the call in August 1366; mustering much of the fleet they'd 'inherited' from the Genoese and sailing it from their ports in Liguria and Corsica--meeting, and beating, detachments of the Venetian Fleet throughout the remaining year.
With the aid of the Montferratians, Basil of Lesbos would having enough breathing room to finally muster the Imperial Fleet in full again--meeting the Venetians, while aided by Montferrat, in the Battle of Naxos in September 1366.
The Battle took place over several days; costing all three sides dearly--but by the end, the Roman-Montferrat fleet had won, and the Venetians were firmly forced to flee from the Aegean.
2/3rds of the Imperial Fleet was gone, forcing Prince Manuel to pay out a donative to the Montferratians in order to assuage the stresses of thereafter being leaned on so heavily, as throughout October, and November, Basil would lead several naval invasions of the 'Duchy of Naxos'--finally ending the Duchy with the taking of Naxos itself by storm in early December 1366.
Finally, on December 24th 1366, de Lluria would surrender Athens, and the Piraeus to Prince Andronikos in a chivalric gesture, knowing he was cut off, and doomed; the Romans having a tense but cordial feast in Athens alongside de Lluria and his men for Christmas.
Come the New Year, the Catalans, and the broader Latins able and wanting to leave, would; taking to ships and departing Athens for good.
It is said that, as he departed, de Lluria would nickname Prince Andronikos 'the Eagle'--for his mannerisms, and seeming embodiment of the Empire he was Crown-Prince of.
The nickname would stick.
Last edited:
More than understandable reasoning, but I can say that due to a very bad irony of fate, Constantinople paid horrendous karma in 1204, to compensate for the disasters caused by its wars in Italy in the previous centuries ( it seems bad to say it, but in Italy when you think to this ( the 4th crusade ) it is said, unfortunately it happens, after all it happened in Rome with the Visigoths and then with the Vandals ! , because it cannot happen elsewhere ?, furthermore it is revenge for the Greek - Gothic wars ( at least this was the way with which my history teacher introduced the topic to us for the first time in high school, years ago )
very interesting is the fact that the Paleologos of Monferrato have literally replaced Genoa, so I imagine that an alliance with Pisa is no longer unlikely ( since the main opponent to this, Genoa is under occupation of Monferrato )
Last edited:
Great chapter, the Romans won the hard fought war to take back Athens. They now need time to rebuild and recover for any future wars with the Latins. Nice nickname for Andronikos, The Eagle, I'm sure he'll lead the Empire into new heights. We need a map of Rhomania in the aftermath of the First Roman-Latin War. Keep up the great work 👍 👍 👍 👍
Last edited:
