Yeah reading his diary you can tell it was an exhausting slog.The most important man in Britain's war effort due to his ability to tell Churchill No.
Alan Brooke, 1st Viscount Alanbrooke - Wikipedia
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Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
The most important man in Britain's war effort due to his ability to tell Churchill No.
Alan Brooke, 1st Viscount Alanbrooke - Wikipedia
I think it says a lot about Churchill that despite their disagreements and arguments he kept Brooke on throughout the entire war. It turned out to be a brilliant partnership as Churchill sometimes overlooked military realities while Brooke would sometimes overlook political realities and necessities.
allanpcameron
Donor
I can't imagine so, at the moment. The stuff that would OTL have gone to Rommel in North Africa is more likely to be available in Russia. Probably 1942 before that kicks in.
Allan
What could change? Nothing that happened OTL in Africa had any effect. The forces that went into Greece/Yugoslavia were not due to be part of the first wave, starting timing is down to the weather etc. The Italians doing worse and a less successful Afrika Korps equally changes nothing.
21 August 1941. Chertsey, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
21 August 1941. Chertsey, England.
The Minister of Supply had come to visit, and Sir John Carden was part of the reason. Publicly, the visit was to commend the workers at Chertsey for their valuable contribution to the war effort. Privately, Beaverbrook had a problem. The Canadian sat down and gratefully accepted a scotch and water. He had been told that the Prime Minister wanted him to go to Moscow to see the situation there and report back on what, realistically, Britain could do to aid the Russians. He was to travel with Averell Harriman, Roosevelt’s special envoy.
In a previous conversation Carden had suggested that something needed to be done to get the tank gun for the Victor properly sorted. He had also suggested some kind of large ROF factory was would concentrate on building the kind of numbers of tanks that would be needed.
After discussions with various firms and, between the War Office and Ministry of Supply, there had been a lukewarm response to the idea. While a new build tank factory seemed like a good idea, the reality was the growing pains of the war economy didn’t really have room for something quite so grand. There was still the fear of air raids which could dent production severely if the big factory was put out of action. It was more the workers that was going to be problem. Unemployment was non-existent for all intents and purposes. Those who were in reserved industries couldn’t just move when it suited them. The need for welding was also going to be a bottleneck.
Currently, Chertsey had the capacity to produce up to 120 tanks per month. Beaverbrook had talked with Nuffield and Vauxhall to see if they could agree to create out of their many small firms, one large tank shop. Moving workers and machine tools would reduce production in the short term, but hopefully make things easier in the longer term. Vauxhall could see the benefit, but felt that their premises in Luton didn’t have the space. Bringing all the A22 production together would be more efficient. They would, however, have to rely on the Ministry of Supply to get a site, build the factory, fill it with machine tools and workers, who would have to be trained. Nuffield argued that they were reaching the capacity to build 60 A15s per week despite being spread over eight sites. Therefore, to Lord Nuffield there was no great advantage for centralising everything.
The one thing that Carden noted that Lord Beaverbrook hadn’t mentioned was Harland and Wolff in Belfast. After the blitz there in April, tank production was being transferred to a new site in Carrickfergus. Belfast tank production of the Valiant I*CS currently was quite slow, only about 30 per month, less since the blitz. It seemed to Carden that if Harland and Wolff could be persuaded to expand what they were doing in Carrickfergus, perhaps increasing the capacity fourfold, it would provide another 90 tanks per month more than were currently being built. Shipping those 90 tanks per month would give the Soviets over a thousand tanks per annum, without stripping the British and Empire forces of the tanks they needed. The problem Beaverbrook saw was that someone would need to persuade the firm to open up their employment to Catholics. That would let the untapped labour force in the Irish Free State provide some of the extra labour required.
With regards progress on the gun for the Victor, Beaverbrook had found that there was pushback from the department overseeing the development and production of filled shells. They considered the 75mm an unusual size, especially as they were having to design AP, APC, APCBC and HE 75mm projectiles. It was taking up some considerable amount of time and effort. Then the Director of Artillery, Major General Campbell Clarke, was arguing that all that effort should not have to be repeated for the 17-pdr anti-tank gun, still under development.
The Royal Ordnance Factories for the filling of shells were already at capacity, and the ability to create new production to match the numbers of HV 75mm guns was a worry. More ROF factories were being opened, but these were already tasked with particular types of shell. Since the change-over to using the necked down 76.2mm x 420R for the gun, they agreed that production would be easier. Nonetheless there was some lobbying to change the Vickers gun to a three-inch gun, rather than 75mm. Since this would be the same as the 17-pdr under development, then the same shells could be used in both guns, as currently with the 2-pdr and 6-pdr.
The Vickers team liaising with the Ministry had insisted that waiting for the 17-pdr to be finalised would delay the introduction of the Victor. Even though the first tranche would be likely be armed with the 6-pdr, it was crucial to get the dual-purpose gun ready as soon as possible. The new HE shells for the 6-pdr were still thought to be too weak, only the dual purpose HV 75mm gun would suffice. The other problem with using the same projectiles as the 17-pdr would mean that the HE round, fired at the same velocity as the AP rounds, would need to be thick walled. The High Explosive charge would therefore be much reduced, making it less effective, just as the 6-pdr was currently. This would defeat the purpose of designing a dual-purpose gun, that was still an excellent ‘hole puncher’ but could also throw out an HE round with a reasonable buster charge.
Carden noted that if Britain was going to supply the Soviets with a large number of tanks, finding out what kind of gun they were using on their own tanks, and how they were getting on against the panzers, would be very useful. Perhaps, while he was in Moscow, Beaverbrook could ask about the possibility of one of the Soviet guns being brought over for examination, along with whichever shells they produced for it. Carden was sure that he could redesign the Valiant II turret to take the Russian gun, so that they could be shipped to Russia, and let the Soviets arm them with the same gun as the rest of their tank force was using.
It seemed to Carden that it was likely that with production of the 6-pdr still ramping up, that the preference of the Government would likely be to send the Soviets Matilda IIs or Valiant Is with the 2-pdr gun, possibly even the A15. The question was why would the Soviets want the 2-pdr armed tank? The 6-pdr, HV 75mm and 17-pdr are already planned to replace it. The fighting in North Africa had shown that a tank gun really needed to be dual purpose. The 2-pdr, and to a lesser extent the 6-pdr, and if Campbell got his way the 17-pdr, would all suffer from a lack of a proper HE shell. Shipping them tanks built for, but not with, the Russian gun would save a lot of trouble.
The other possibility that occurred to Carden was what would happen to the current order for 1250 Medium M3 tanks from America? The first of these had been manufactured and the expected date of delivery was towards the end of the year. From what he’d read from the British team in Washington, Beaverbrook didn’t think the M3 was going to be too popular with the British tank crews. It was too tall, and with the main gun in the side sponson, the fear was it wouldn’t be as effective in taking a ‘hull down’ position. The War Office was talking about the M3s going to the Indian, Australian, South African and New Zealand armies.
The Australians had entered an agreement with Canada to supply them with Valiant IIs, but it wasn’t clear when delivery might begin. The Indian Armoured Divisions would likely be happy enough with the American tank, at least initially. The South Africans weren’t going to be leaving Africa, and the M3 was certainly good enough take on anything on that continent that had tanks. New Zealand were talking about a Tank Brigade, and the M3 could fit with what they wanted. There was only going to be enough M3s for three Armoured Divisions at most. Two would be more likely, if they were going to keep back some tanks as battle replacements.
As Carden understood it, the Medium M3 had been bought as insurance against the failure of the A15 program, and to encourage the Americans to take tanks seriously. It occurred to Carden that it might be better for America to be main supplier of tanks to the Soviets through lend-lease. The Americans were still ramping up production, and already had the design of the M4 replacement for the M3 quite far advanced. If the M4 was as good as the rumours were suggesting, it might be a better fit for the Soviets, than the British Infantry tanks. The American 75mm would likely be similar to the Soviet tank gun, so maybe their tanks would a better match. Beaverbrook agreed that the idea that the Victor would be offered to the Soviets, even before it was accepted by the British army, wasn’t an option. Carden suggested that the American capacity was far beyond anything that Britain could match. Would it be worth asking the Americans for the M3 and then M4 as lend-lease tanks, then ship them onto the Soviets? Beaverbrook said he’d ask Harriman about it when they had a chance.
All of this discussion had made Beaverbrook think that since the Americans were using a 75mm gun, and if, God willing, they joined the war against Germany, it was likely that the British and Americans would fight side by side. Having a common gun and shell would be useful. Carden agreed, but he would be surprised if the Americans would take a British designed gun for their tanks. It would be more likely that British tanks would have to move to a 75mm gun. Beaverbrook smiled, that was the very thing that Campbell and the Shell Filling Department didn’t want. Carden thought something could be bodged up. Perhaps it would be worth seeing if the 6-pdr could be adapted to fire 75mm shells?
The Minister of Supply had come to visit, and Sir John Carden was part of the reason. Publicly, the visit was to commend the workers at Chertsey for their valuable contribution to the war effort. Privately, Beaverbrook had a problem. The Canadian sat down and gratefully accepted a scotch and water. He had been told that the Prime Minister wanted him to go to Moscow to see the situation there and report back on what, realistically, Britain could do to aid the Russians. He was to travel with Averell Harriman, Roosevelt’s special envoy.
In a previous conversation Carden had suggested that something needed to be done to get the tank gun for the Victor properly sorted. He had also suggested some kind of large ROF factory was would concentrate on building the kind of numbers of tanks that would be needed.
After discussions with various firms and, between the War Office and Ministry of Supply, there had been a lukewarm response to the idea. While a new build tank factory seemed like a good idea, the reality was the growing pains of the war economy didn’t really have room for something quite so grand. There was still the fear of air raids which could dent production severely if the big factory was put out of action. It was more the workers that was going to be problem. Unemployment was non-existent for all intents and purposes. Those who were in reserved industries couldn’t just move when it suited them. The need for welding was also going to be a bottleneck.
Currently, Chertsey had the capacity to produce up to 120 tanks per month. Beaverbrook had talked with Nuffield and Vauxhall to see if they could agree to create out of their many small firms, one large tank shop. Moving workers and machine tools would reduce production in the short term, but hopefully make things easier in the longer term. Vauxhall could see the benefit, but felt that their premises in Luton didn’t have the space. Bringing all the A22 production together would be more efficient. They would, however, have to rely on the Ministry of Supply to get a site, build the factory, fill it with machine tools and workers, who would have to be trained. Nuffield argued that they were reaching the capacity to build 60 A15s per week despite being spread over eight sites. Therefore, to Lord Nuffield there was no great advantage for centralising everything.
The one thing that Carden noted that Lord Beaverbrook hadn’t mentioned was Harland and Wolff in Belfast. After the blitz there in April, tank production was being transferred to a new site in Carrickfergus. Belfast tank production of the Valiant I*CS currently was quite slow, only about 30 per month, less since the blitz. It seemed to Carden that if Harland and Wolff could be persuaded to expand what they were doing in Carrickfergus, perhaps increasing the capacity fourfold, it would provide another 90 tanks per month more than were currently being built. Shipping those 90 tanks per month would give the Soviets over a thousand tanks per annum, without stripping the British and Empire forces of the tanks they needed. The problem Beaverbrook saw was that someone would need to persuade the firm to open up their employment to Catholics. That would let the untapped labour force in the Irish Free State provide some of the extra labour required.
With regards progress on the gun for the Victor, Beaverbrook had found that there was pushback from the department overseeing the development and production of filled shells. They considered the 75mm an unusual size, especially as they were having to design AP, APC, APCBC and HE 75mm projectiles. It was taking up some considerable amount of time and effort. Then the Director of Artillery, Major General Campbell Clarke, was arguing that all that effort should not have to be repeated for the 17-pdr anti-tank gun, still under development.
The Royal Ordnance Factories for the filling of shells were already at capacity, and the ability to create new production to match the numbers of HV 75mm guns was a worry. More ROF factories were being opened, but these were already tasked with particular types of shell. Since the change-over to using the necked down 76.2mm x 420R for the gun, they agreed that production would be easier. Nonetheless there was some lobbying to change the Vickers gun to a three-inch gun, rather than 75mm. Since this would be the same as the 17-pdr under development, then the same shells could be used in both guns, as currently with the 2-pdr and 6-pdr.
The Vickers team liaising with the Ministry had insisted that waiting for the 17-pdr to be finalised would delay the introduction of the Victor. Even though the first tranche would be likely be armed with the 6-pdr, it was crucial to get the dual-purpose gun ready as soon as possible. The new HE shells for the 6-pdr were still thought to be too weak, only the dual purpose HV 75mm gun would suffice. The other problem with using the same projectiles as the 17-pdr would mean that the HE round, fired at the same velocity as the AP rounds, would need to be thick walled. The High Explosive charge would therefore be much reduced, making it less effective, just as the 6-pdr was currently. This would defeat the purpose of designing a dual-purpose gun, that was still an excellent ‘hole puncher’ but could also throw out an HE round with a reasonable buster charge.
Carden noted that if Britain was going to supply the Soviets with a large number of tanks, finding out what kind of gun they were using on their own tanks, and how they were getting on against the panzers, would be very useful. Perhaps, while he was in Moscow, Beaverbrook could ask about the possibility of one of the Soviet guns being brought over for examination, along with whichever shells they produced for it. Carden was sure that he could redesign the Valiant II turret to take the Russian gun, so that they could be shipped to Russia, and let the Soviets arm them with the same gun as the rest of their tank force was using.
It seemed to Carden that it was likely that with production of the 6-pdr still ramping up, that the preference of the Government would likely be to send the Soviets Matilda IIs or Valiant Is with the 2-pdr gun, possibly even the A15. The question was why would the Soviets want the 2-pdr armed tank? The 6-pdr, HV 75mm and 17-pdr are already planned to replace it. The fighting in North Africa had shown that a tank gun really needed to be dual purpose. The 2-pdr, and to a lesser extent the 6-pdr, and if Campbell got his way the 17-pdr, would all suffer from a lack of a proper HE shell. Shipping them tanks built for, but not with, the Russian gun would save a lot of trouble.
The other possibility that occurred to Carden was what would happen to the current order for 1250 Medium M3 tanks from America? The first of these had been manufactured and the expected date of delivery was towards the end of the year. From what he’d read from the British team in Washington, Beaverbrook didn’t think the M3 was going to be too popular with the British tank crews. It was too tall, and with the main gun in the side sponson, the fear was it wouldn’t be as effective in taking a ‘hull down’ position. The War Office was talking about the M3s going to the Indian, Australian, South African and New Zealand armies.
The Australians had entered an agreement with Canada to supply them with Valiant IIs, but it wasn’t clear when delivery might begin. The Indian Armoured Divisions would likely be happy enough with the American tank, at least initially. The South Africans weren’t going to be leaving Africa, and the M3 was certainly good enough take on anything on that continent that had tanks. New Zealand were talking about a Tank Brigade, and the M3 could fit with what they wanted. There was only going to be enough M3s for three Armoured Divisions at most. Two would be more likely, if they were going to keep back some tanks as battle replacements.
As Carden understood it, the Medium M3 had been bought as insurance against the failure of the A15 program, and to encourage the Americans to take tanks seriously. It occurred to Carden that it might be better for America to be main supplier of tanks to the Soviets through lend-lease. The Americans were still ramping up production, and already had the design of the M4 replacement for the M3 quite far advanced. If the M4 was as good as the rumours were suggesting, it might be a better fit for the Soviets, than the British Infantry tanks. The American 75mm would likely be similar to the Soviet tank gun, so maybe their tanks would a better match. Beaverbrook agreed that the idea that the Victor would be offered to the Soviets, even before it was accepted by the British army, wasn’t an option. Carden suggested that the American capacity was far beyond anything that Britain could match. Would it be worth asking the Americans for the M3 and then M4 as lend-lease tanks, then ship them onto the Soviets? Beaverbrook said he’d ask Harriman about it when they had a chance.
All of this discussion had made Beaverbrook think that since the Americans were using a 75mm gun, and if, God willing, they joined the war against Germany, it was likely that the British and Americans would fight side by side. Having a common gun and shell would be useful. Carden agreed, but he would be surprised if the Americans would take a British designed gun for their tanks. It would be more likely that British tanks would have to move to a 75mm gun. Beaverbrook smiled, that was the very thing that Campbell and the Shell Filling Department didn’t want. Carden thought something could be bodged up. Perhaps it would be worth seeing if the 6-pdr could be adapted to fire 75mm shells?
The only thing I can think of being that, after France, different decisions were made in new models of tanks, perhaps a sooner switch (I'd possible) to the long-barrel 50mm.
Good post. Not giving the Soviets so many British tanks means more of the things for the Empire, and boring out the 6-pounder to take the American 75mm shells will improve its usefulness.
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Given NA will be winding up soonish at least until the Vichy do something stupid it will take some of the pressure off. Which will help the supply situation at least until it all gets dropped in the pot in Asia.
Still though those M3 Tanks will be a god send out east and more tanks for kicking the IJA means they bleed harder.
Still though those M3 Tanks will be a god send out east and more tanks for kicking the IJA means they bleed harder.
Also, unless something goes drastically wrong in NA, Auchinleck is staying east, which will also be bad for Japan's outlook.
Yeah Auchinleck staying east is a massive change in this timeline due to the panic Rommel caused their won't be changing any horses mid way and if he gets Slim earlier I can see the east going very differently.
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Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
I think the Germans lost less transport aircraft and pilots on Crete in this timeline than in original timeline. Unless I'm confusing this timeline with Garrison's.
That's probably going to help somewhat but the Germans don't really rotate those pilots to the rear for rest or to train the next generation the same way the British and Commonwealth do.
Also doesn't help that the Luft is like the Byzantine court in terms of the amount of backstabbing.
Although I'd not expect a big impact on Barbarossa initially, there should be some effect.
For exampl, the Germans should be short some transport because the Allies did better in France so more were evacuated and more sabotaged than OTL
They should also be short a few tanks as fighting went on longer in France and in Greece, so not only more German tanks damaged or destroyed, but fewer captured French tanks. This will have a bigger impact on training, second line units and allied forces, but there were a few all-French equipped front-line German units OTL that will have to make do with fewer or inferior tanks ITTL.
Most of this is likely to have small cumulative effects - a few extra tanks lost here, a harder fight there - which would probably take quite a few months to deviate noticably from OTL. I'd expect it's likely to have bigger effects through weaker Romanian and Hungarian forces, more troops required to contain partisan activities due to fewer vehicles in the rear areas, and less-well-trained drivers due to shortage of training vehicles.
It may also eliminate some of the creative opportunities for sticking guns on things like Vickers light tanks.
For exampl, the Germans should be short some transport because the Allies did better in France so more were evacuated and more sabotaged than OTL
They should also be short a few tanks as fighting went on longer in France and in Greece, so not only more German tanks damaged or destroyed, but fewer captured French tanks. This will have a bigger impact on training, second line units and allied forces, but there were a few all-French equipped front-line German units OTL that will have to make do with fewer or inferior tanks ITTL.
Most of this is likely to have small cumulative effects - a few extra tanks lost here, a harder fight there - which would probably take quite a few months to deviate noticably from OTL. I'd expect it's likely to have bigger effects through weaker Romanian and Hungarian forces, more troops required to contain partisan activities due to fewer vehicles in the rear areas, and less-well-trained drivers due to shortage of training vehicles.
It may also eliminate some of the creative opportunities for sticking guns on things like Vickers light tanks.
On the other hand, the losses in NA will mean less of a drain there going forward.
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I didn't realise that H & W wouldn't employ Catholics, though I probably shouldn't be surprised.
If they could be convinced of this change, it could cause interesting results 20-30 years down the track.
Weren't they one of the biggest employers in Northern Ireland at the time?
MattII, True.
The question then is how well a better ongoing supply situation compensates for a weaker initial position.
I'd expect the early stage of Barbarossa ITTL would be very similar to OTL, but with problems starting to show in 42 and a possibility of earlier collapse of Romanian and Hungarian allies.
Edited to show who I was replying to.
The question then is how well a better ongoing supply situation compensates for a weaker initial position.
I'd expect the early stage of Barbarossa ITTL would be very similar to OTL, but with problems starting to show in 42 and a possibility of earlier collapse of Romanian and Hungarian allies.
Edited to show who I was replying to.
Which is somewhat countered by the fact the Italians are likely to minimise their involvement in Barbarossa as much as they can get away with claiming the need to defend the homeland, so German troops will have to replace Italian ones.
I really doubt the Fascist Council or King will be all that interested in adventures in the Soviet Union after Mussolini lost the Empire Italy spent 50 years building in less than a year.
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True, but you're sending a lot fewer Germans to NA, so that helps balance things out there.Which is somewhat countered by the fact the Italians are likely to minimise their involvement in Barbarossa as much as they can get away with claiming the need to defend the homeland, so German troops will have to replace Italian ones.
I really doubt the Fascist Council or King will be all that interested in adventures in the Soviet Union after Mussolini lost the Empire Italy spent 50 years building in less than a year.
