Also, the Japanese probably had fewer cannon available than Germany would have.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
That had much more to do with the German E Boats shooting the convoy to pieces than the DD tanks limited seaworthiness.
17 September 1941. Durban, South Africa.
allanpcameron
Donor
17 September 1941. Durban, South Africa.
The port of Durban was well used to seeing convoys coming and going. The possibility of enemy agents taking note of what ships were arriving and leaving was always a concern. The chances were that the stop at Gibraltar was the more likely place where such information would be passed to the enemy.
If someone was taking note of the types of vessels that were part of this particular convoy, they would likely have noticed a few ships quite different from the norm. HMS Bachaquero and Misoa were converted tankers, now built for carrying tanks, or as the Royal Navy called them ‘Landing Ship Tanks’. Their sea journey was at best uncomfortable, designed for the use on a lake in Venezuela, they were built with a shallow draft which made ocean crossings 'interesting'.
Alongside these two oddities were five other conversions. The Landing Ship Infantry (Assault) (HMS Karanja, Prince Charles, Queen Emma, Royal Scotsman and Ulster Monarch) were all carrying various reinforcements for the Middle East, mostly draftees to replace casualties. There were also another two battalions (40 and 41 (RM) Cdo) of the Special Service Brigade to join the four already in theatre. Ten other merchant ships, including two large troop ships, were part of the convoy, not including two RFA oilers. Most of these ships had been loaded up in August to take part in a planned seizure of the Azores. With that operation cancelled, and with General Wavell needing amphibious resources for the plan to capture a number of Mediterranean islands, it had been decided to send the ships to Suez.
The majority of the troops that had been destined for the Azores, which came from the Canadian infantry Divisions, had been disembarked, with their equipment. As an extra Winston Special Convoy, WS8C was carrying much of the usual things needed in Egypt, ammunition, medical supplies, spare parts and extra weapons. The two LST had sailed empty, partly because of their poor sea handling. Partly because at Durban they were going to be loaded with Marmon-Harrington equipped South African Armoured Car Companies.
Amongst the cargo of the various merchant ships were the first batch of Birch Self-Propelled Guns and Vanguard Self-Propelled AA Guns. Twenty-four of each, enough to equip a Royal Artillery Regiment with each. 3rd Royal Horse Artillery Regiment, attached to 7 Armoured Division, were already heading back to the Canal Zone to take possession and begin training on the Birch SPGs. Likewise, 1st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA were also going to trained on the Vanguards. Accompanying the Self-propelled guns were some crews from 6th Armoured Division. This had been the Division which had worked with these vehicles and had sorted out the tactics and best use for them. These would be men who would train the new regiments on them.
In addition, some of the tanks that Major-General Hobart had been working on were also aboard the ships. These had been sent to be tested in the hot and dusty climate. There were two mine-clearing tanks, two bridging tanks and four AVRE (Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers). All ten tanks were based on either the A13 or A15 hull. As well as some experienced crews, a number of civilians from the various companies which had worked on the development of each type were also sailing with the convoy. Overseeing the testing program, they would be able to quickly discern what other adaptations would need to be made to have them ready for full production.
It would be another two weeks before the convoy reached the Suez, more before the men and equipment would be ready to go to war. When General Wavell had been informed of this unexpected bonus of extra amphibious capability, he had a long meeting with Admiral Cunningham about how to put them to good use. Since then, with Brigadier Robert Laycock in charge, a combined team of Navy, Army and Royal Air Force had been put together, to put flesh on the bones of the plan concocted by Wavell and Cunningham.
The port of Durban was well used to seeing convoys coming and going. The possibility of enemy agents taking note of what ships were arriving and leaving was always a concern. The chances were that the stop at Gibraltar was the more likely place where such information would be passed to the enemy.
If someone was taking note of the types of vessels that were part of this particular convoy, they would likely have noticed a few ships quite different from the norm. HMS Bachaquero and Misoa were converted tankers, now built for carrying tanks, or as the Royal Navy called them ‘Landing Ship Tanks’. Their sea journey was at best uncomfortable, designed for the use on a lake in Venezuela, they were built with a shallow draft which made ocean crossings 'interesting'.
Alongside these two oddities were five other conversions. The Landing Ship Infantry (Assault) (HMS Karanja, Prince Charles, Queen Emma, Royal Scotsman and Ulster Monarch) were all carrying various reinforcements for the Middle East, mostly draftees to replace casualties. There were also another two battalions (40 and 41 (RM) Cdo) of the Special Service Brigade to join the four already in theatre. Ten other merchant ships, including two large troop ships, were part of the convoy, not including two RFA oilers. Most of these ships had been loaded up in August to take part in a planned seizure of the Azores. With that operation cancelled, and with General Wavell needing amphibious resources for the plan to capture a number of Mediterranean islands, it had been decided to send the ships to Suez.
The majority of the troops that had been destined for the Azores, which came from the Canadian infantry Divisions, had been disembarked, with their equipment. As an extra Winston Special Convoy, WS8C was carrying much of the usual things needed in Egypt, ammunition, medical supplies, spare parts and extra weapons. The two LST had sailed empty, partly because of their poor sea handling. Partly because at Durban they were going to be loaded with Marmon-Harrington equipped South African Armoured Car Companies.
Amongst the cargo of the various merchant ships were the first batch of Birch Self-Propelled Guns and Vanguard Self-Propelled AA Guns. Twenty-four of each, enough to equip a Royal Artillery Regiment with each. 3rd Royal Horse Artillery Regiment, attached to 7 Armoured Division, were already heading back to the Canal Zone to take possession and begin training on the Birch SPGs. Likewise, 1st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA were also going to trained on the Vanguards. Accompanying the Self-propelled guns were some crews from 6th Armoured Division. This had been the Division which had worked with these vehicles and had sorted out the tactics and best use for them. These would be men who would train the new regiments on them.
In addition, some of the tanks that Major-General Hobart had been working on were also aboard the ships. These had been sent to be tested in the hot and dusty climate. There were two mine-clearing tanks, two bridging tanks and four AVRE (Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers). All ten tanks were based on either the A13 or A15 hull. As well as some experienced crews, a number of civilians from the various companies which had worked on the development of each type were also sailing with the convoy. Overseeing the testing program, they would be able to quickly discern what other adaptations would need to be made to have them ready for full production.
It would be another two weeks before the convoy reached the Suez, more before the men and equipment would be ready to go to war. When General Wavell had been informed of this unexpected bonus of extra amphibious capability, he had a long meeting with Admiral Cunningham about how to put them to good use. Since then, with Brigadier Robert Laycock in charge, a combined team of Navy, Army and Royal Air Force had been put together, to put flesh on the bones of the plan concocted by Wavell and Cunningham.
Its ethier going to be against Rhodes or to cut off the rear of the Italians and germans in Libya to prevent a retreat into Vichy territory.
Still though Atlantic crossing in September is not going to be pleasant especially in a flat bottom boat.
Also I really want to see Rommel talking about the British Army and try to pin it all on the Italians.
Still though Atlantic crossing in September is not going to be pleasant especially in a flat bottom boat.
Also I really want to see Rommel talking about the British Army and try to pin it all on the Italians.
I feel as though I should reiterate my earlier observation, that the name Vanguard is somewhat misused. It makes the most sense as the name of a light tank or scout vehicle, or if not that a medium/main battle tank. Oh well.
It's nice to see some early specials.
You can be sure that Vanguards will be known as "Guards van" very soon after delivery despite the best efforts of respectable types.
Wasn't there a Vampire in the works?
You can be sure that Vanguards will be known as "Guards van" very soon after delivery despite the best efforts of respectable types.
Wasn't there a Vampire in the works?
As it mentioned, the ships en route to Alexandria can be used either against Rhodes or Tripolitania. What would either target mean?
A landing in Rhodes has a meaning only as an island-hopping campaign at the Aegean. The ultimate target would be to establish fighter bases in strategic islands at the north (Lemnos in particular) to assist the future bombing campaign against Ploesti. At the same time, the Dardanelles would be closed to Axis shipping. Romanian oil cannot be sent via sea to Italy. Last but not least, it increases the threat of landings over a vast coastline spanning from Thrace (Alexandroupolis port) to the Peloponnese. Otherwise, Axis-held Aegean islands act as a security barrier. So an island hopping campaign would tie down a significant number of Axis divisions on the coast of mainland Greece.
However, if an island hopping campaign is not in the plands, Rhodes on itself as little value. Crete itself would be a better-suited unsinkable carrier. In that case, Libya would be a more desirable target. Due to the distances involved, the alt-Crusader with Sirte as a starting point would limit the number of formations that can take part. Of course the same applies to the Axis as well, since they have left only a single port and the RN can safely-ish operate in Central Mediterranean with Crete and Cyrenaica in Allied control. So, both armies will be weaker compared to OTL Crusader, the Axis considerably more with very little armour. It would made certain sense to land a brigade group with armour behind the Axis frontline to ensure the Italians' complete destruction (few Germans would have been left by that point in the Axis OOB).
Overall, both the Rhodes and Tripolitania choices have their merits. What is certain though, is that the Allies have more divisions in the theatre than they can supply in Tripolitania while Vichy Syria is much less threatening compared to OTL. I think the author has dropped a hint about which formations will be sent to Malaya.
The question that is rising is whether the two brigades and HQ will stay in Malaya or if they will be sent to Ambon, Timor and Rabaul.
Lastly, I want to ask @allanpcameron what is the status of the formation of the Australian Armoured Division or at least its first armoured brigade.
A landing in Rhodes has a meaning only as an island-hopping campaign at the Aegean. The ultimate target would be to establish fighter bases in strategic islands at the north (Lemnos in particular) to assist the future bombing campaign against Ploesti. At the same time, the Dardanelles would be closed to Axis shipping. Romanian oil cannot be sent via sea to Italy. Last but not least, it increases the threat of landings over a vast coastline spanning from Thrace (Alexandroupolis port) to the Peloponnese. Otherwise, Axis-held Aegean islands act as a security barrier. So an island hopping campaign would tie down a significant number of Axis divisions on the coast of mainland Greece.
However, if an island hopping campaign is not in the plands, Rhodes on itself as little value. Crete itself would be a better-suited unsinkable carrier. In that case, Libya would be a more desirable target. Due to the distances involved, the alt-Crusader with Sirte as a starting point would limit the number of formations that can take part. Of course the same applies to the Axis as well, since they have left only a single port and the RN can safely-ish operate in Central Mediterranean with Crete and Cyrenaica in Allied control. So, both armies will be weaker compared to OTL Crusader, the Axis considerably more with very little armour. It would made certain sense to land a brigade group with armour behind the Axis frontline to ensure the Italians' complete destruction (few Germans would have been left by that point in the Axis OOB).
Overall, both the Rhodes and Tripolitania choices have their merits. What is certain though, is that the Allies have more divisions in the theatre than they can supply in Tripolitania while Vichy Syria is much less threatening compared to OTL. I think the author has dropped a hint about which formations will be sent to Malaya.
The question that is rising is whether the two brigades and HQ will stay in Malaya or if they will be sent to Ambon, Timor and Rabaul.
Lastly, I want to ask @allanpcameron what is the status of the formation of the Australian Armoured Division or at least its first armoured brigade.
Taking Rhodes does have strategic benefit in of itself, as with Crete still in Allied hands it means any attempts to bomb the ports of Egypt will have to pass over radar and air cover - in effect turning the Eastern Mediterranean into a British lake.
This is true. What I question though is the ability of the Axis to sustain a bombing campaign via Rhodes. Their OTL logistics in the Aegean were frankly atrocious. In TTl without Crete to provide air cover and with Allied aircraft, submarines and destroyers operating from Crete, their logistics will be even more precarious. However, indeed taking Rhodes makes the Eastern Mediterranean a british lake.
Also, while I doubt it would actually persuade the Turks to change their minds, looking at it from London in mid 1941 it would provide a little more pressure to get the Turks to allow allied shipping to pass through the Bosphorus Straight.
Well, the entrance to the Dardanelles is controlled by ... the Germans from their bases in the north Aegean. That point is moot until the Allies control the Aegean from Crete to Lemnos. I don't think that even the most optimistic policy maker would actually believe that the Germans would allow this.
In OTL sending aid through the Bosporus didn't happen even in late 1944 when the Germans were in full retreat and their closest unit was at the Danube.
I think the window of opportunity allows only for one operation in September-October 1941. But I very well be wrong.
So one operation, and then the ships go back to Britain? Doesn't sound efficient TBH. My thought is, they use them first to cut off the Axis escape in Tunisia (landing somewhere around Zuwara perhaps), followed a few months later by an attempt at Rhodes.
Well they know how to evacuate troops under less-than-ideal conditions, so they have a tiny bit of experience.
Mark1878
Donor
Would it be worth send out Admiral Ramsey to add to his experience (he was in charge at Dunkirk and OTL planned the naval side of Overlord)
Thats actually really helpful, because it lets you know what you would need to do in the event that an amphibious landing went competely kaput and you needed to get your men and as much material out of there as possible as fast as possible.