While I got you here @Torbald, how do you think Spains relationship with Italy will go without the Italian Wars screwing over everybody?
The Grand Duchy of the West - A Valois-Burgundian TL
- Thread starter BlueFlowwer
- Start date
An Amateur Opinion is that the spanish might still exert considerble influence due to holding Naples and Scilly but they might be counterd by A strong Sforza Milan or Venice. i think it depends a lot on the current pope and the state of Milan Mantua Florence Venice and Genoa are at.
The Trastamara branch of Naples still holds the kingdom since the main line Anjou branch survives, thus Charles VIII never get that claim and the Italian Wars don't start like Otl. Spain is definitely gonna take a stronger influence in Italy and on the papacy. Well take a look at Milan as well in either the next chapter of the one after that, I'm not sure what to do about Mantua, or Genoa, but Florence is gonna have a little better history because the Medicis never gets kicked out of Tuscany. I have no idea what to with Venice. Help?
Sorry for the mix up it can be quite confusing keeping straight everything that has changed. I feel like Genoa has histroicaly been very influenced by France so it could lean there but to be fair under Andrea Doria it leaned very heavily towards Charles V so thats not for certain. Mantua is owned by the Gonzaga's who historicaly pretty much swang with the wind i feel like there alliegences would be formed on who can keep then independent from Pope/Venice/Milan/Foreign Power and who can get them richer. Its hard to suggest Advice since i dont know whats going to happen in the future of the Timeline bu i feel like those are some key charitericts that might help
I'm very happy for your interest as a non Italian Wars Italy is interesting. Let me see what I can do with this. I want Spain to be less dependent on the Genoese in this otl as Philip II was, I think.
I feel Spain is already not as reliant on Genoa becuae they havent taken out all those loans they did OTL and havent started trading tomorrows american gold shipment for todays loan. So a major reliance is cut off there. Another thing they dont have to rely on is getting troops through there due to the Spanish Road to burgundy. Andrea Dorias Fleet at least for Charles V was how he moved anywere in the Med due to a lack of a Spanish Med Fleet. I feel if Spain Builds a fleet it basicaly is free of any reliance on Genoa except for a future war in Itally or aganist France.
Good. A spanish fleet might be a good thing for them to have.
Again some very amateur advice for Venice is depending on how much your Ottomans are aggresive will massivley influence how much they support Austria and Hungary aganist the Turks or in turn if they arernt as aggresive how much they are willing to interfere in other ittalien state politics.
If im being honest i dont now enough to tell you their exact position so that was more educated guesswork given that the circumstances have changed a lot. But i feel like the above is a good place to start in figuring out what they would do.
Well, actually. i'd like to know what you meant there.
F.e. Estates Charles = Estates, or Estates General?
And i'm sorry, because i'm just starting to read TGDotW, i'll probably stumble over some more...
Evidently the word Charles after the Estates was just a acident. It must have slipped in there when I wasn't looking. "Charles told the estates that he was awesome and invincible and totes give him more money" something like that.
Thanks, that's cleared up then.
And that "thus seed permission"?
I propose to rather let you off the hook and only ask about the unclear ones in future 8^)
It should say "seek permission" rather then seed permission. And it was 35 chapters ago.
Chapter 41 - England from 1517 to 1520
Chapter 41 – England from 1517 to 1520
The new Princess of Wales arrived like a petrel from a storm to the shores of England in July of 1517. The voyage of the emperor’s eldest daughter had not been an easy one, traveling on land from Vienna until Aachen, where she had been warmly greeted by Charles II of Croy, who had been sent to aid her journey into the low countries until she reached the english channel. She entered the city of Bruges with great ceremony, as the duke and duchess wanted to impress the future queen of England, especially the duchess. After all the imperial bride would wed her nephew and Beatrijs was keen on improving the cold relationship between her natal and married country. She would also have meet Marguerite and Philippa of Brabant during her days at court and while the eldest sister was very friendly to Elizabeth, Philippa treated her coldly. As far as she was concerned the Austrian girl had taken the match with England that her grandfather had negotiated for her own hand.
After a week of resting, the imperial party left Bruges to cross the english channel. Elizabeth of Austria had a very rough crossing and upon her arrival to Dover the frightened archduchess knelt down on the deck and loudly praised the Virgin for bringing her safely to land at last. Her entourage was meet by the Duke of Bedford, whom showed her and her companions to the comfortable refurbished Dover castle, where Elizabeth took to her chambers until the evening, when she dined with Bedford.
Elizabeth of Austria meet Prince Richard a fortnight later at Leeds Castle, a royal residence owned by Queen Catherine. Originally Leeds had been brought by Eleanor of Castile in 1278 and it was favoured by both Beatrice of Portugal and Catherine of Aragon from 1486 and onwards. The beautiful castle, situated on a small lake, proved to be a romantic setting for the two young royals. Elizabeth was sixteen years old to Richard’s fourteen at the time, but Richard seemed infatuated by his bride nevertheless. Being the daughter of a reigning emperor seemed like the grandest thing to him and her German clothes and speech made her look more foreign and interesting to his eyes. Elizabeth’s gown was cut in a different way for the English, with an open fronted gown laced over her kirtle and the narrow sleeves decorated with ribbons in contrasting colors. In addition to her dowry of 200,000 guldiner, Elizabeth brought gold and silver objects from Bohemia and jewelry given from her mother. The many bohemian garnets belonging to her became an object of fascination for the court upon her arrival and many ladies began to imitate her with their jewelry.
Leeds Castle in Kent
Their marriage was celebrated in great splendor, as benefiting an imperial bride. Elizabeth would keep many persons in her entourage, while others returned to Austria. Queen Catherine kept her new daughter in law besides her at court for the first months, to give her time to acclimate to the social fabric and get to know the courtiers and households around the king and queen. While some naysayers turned their nose up at Elizabeth, calling her a uncouth German, and wishing that the French princess Charlotte of Valois had married the prince of Wales instead, many others quickly grew to like her. As the Prince of Wales returned to his duties in Wales for the autumn, Elizabeth rooted herself in the court and carefully absorbed the queen’s lessons. She also met the ailing dowager queen Beatrice of Viseu, whom mostly lived in Coldharbour House when she was in London. Beatrice seemed happy for her grandson to be married to a daughter of a emperor, as she had despised that “that mere count’s daughter in Boulogne” even before Anne had broken her English wedding for the Count of Saint-Pol. The betrayal of the Duchess of Bedford, the wife of her son, Thomas, had enraged her and some rumors said that Beatrice had pressed for an invasion of Flanders in retribution. Its not very likely those rumors had any truth to them, as Beatrice had mostly stayed away from politics during her tenure as queen. The dowager queen died in June of 1519, much to the kingdom’s grief and the royal family. Her coffin would be taken to York cathedral with a royal progress, where she was laid to rest next to her husband, who had been buried in the north he so dearly loved. Her granddaughter, golden haired Helena of York would accompany the coffin along with her parents, whom had at last been blessed with a son, Richard of York, just over a year ago. The two children would be the only ones the Duke and Dutchess had and they were immensely cherished.
Richard and Catherine also grieved for Beatrice, but life spun on in the York kingdom and with their eldest child married, they turned their attention towards their second. Elizabeth of York had been the darling daughter ever since her birth and her parents aspired to make her the greatest match in Christendom. While the king had considered Brabant, Portugal and the Empire, Catherine had only one marriage in mind: Spain. There were few grooms as prestigious as her grand-nephew, Juan of Spain. The only son of the Prince of Asturias, Viana and Girona, he would one day inherit the empire his grandparents reigned over, making him the most eligible for a royal marriage. Almost all knew of the queen’s determination for her daughter to become Juan’s bride and Catherine had educated her daughter well for the role. She had been taught Castilian and Aragonese and a limited Catalan, how to run a large royal household, dancing, reading, hunting and other appropriate skills. Catherine and Richard had embraced the humanist movements and taken scholars into their court, to educate the royal children. Among them was Erasmus of Rotterdam, John Colet, John Fisher and Sir Thomas More, the last man being an impressive figure who caught Richard’s eye in 1511. One more Thomas had entered the court in 1508, becoming the royal chaplain. Thomas Wolsey had benefited from Richard’s attentiveness for capable people from humbler beginnings, becoming an envoy for various diplomatic tasks as well as counselor to the king. He had become Bishop of Lincoln in 1519, a great accomplishment. There were many whispers that Wolsey desired more power, but King Richard held him on a stern leash and Wolsey did not have the nerve to defy his sovereign, whose wrath could be immense when roused. Wolsey did get into the good graces of the king by handling the arrangements for his mother’s many possessions after her death.
John Colet, humanist at the court of England
England entered the year of 1520 in peace and prosperity, with cold and crisp winter days in January, followed by slush and rains for some days, that left the streets treacherously frozen in the mornings, covered by icy mud and black ice where one had to be careful to step. Thomas Wolsey found himself being called to court by the king on the 8th of February, curtsy of a rider bringing a summon. It was time to finalize the arrangements for the Princess Elizabeth’s betrothal to the Spanish infante and Wolsey would be a key person to lead the negotiations. The prince was only eleven years old and it would be three years before he was of marriageable age, while Elizabeth, being fifteen would wait until she turned eighteen to leave for Spain. The king also turned his attention to his second daughter, Beatrice of York, now ten years old. For her, either Denmark, or Brittany was a good option. Brabant would be even better, but Richard had not forgiven them for the embarrassment the English had suffered with the intended marriage to Boulogne in 1514 and thus decided to seek another match for Beatrice.
The Prince of Wales had turned seventeen years old in 1520 and had since a couple of years ago started to govern Wales in his own right. The reports showed him being an intelligent, athletic and social young man, easily charming those around him with a smile and his wits. Something that certainly went home with the ladies. Even at this rather young age, he already had a mistress and a bastard, despite being married to Elizabeth of Austria. Sir John Blount was a servant to the royal household and had fought valiantly in Boulogne in 1514, and as result his eldest daughter, Elizabeth had entered the household of the Queen a year after and later become a maid of hon our to Elizabeth of Austria in 1517. To distinguish her from her mistress, Elizabeth went by the name Bessie, often called Merry Bess, for her energy and good cheer. By 1518 she had become the prince’s sweetheart, and the mother to his first daughter, baby Anne Fitzroy.
As for his wife, Elizabeth bore her husband’s infidelity with patience. But her lack of children seemed to impact her more, as three years had passed since her marriage, but she had yet to conceive. Elizabeth regularly traveled with the queen to shrines of saints in the first years in England, most likely praying for a child, but so far, no divine intersession had come to her.
In the middle of May came the most horrific news from Wales to the court. The old castle of Ludlow, where the prince was residing had become engulfed in a terrible fire during the night on the 14th, when an exhausted scullery maid had fallen asleep surrounded by large linens and fabrics and forgot to put out her lamp. The fire was devastating, spreading quickly through floor to floor, devouring everything in its path and causing the roof to cave in. Several members of the household perished in the flames or suffocated on the thick smoke in the corridors and stairs, while guards and servants sought to desperately put out the flames with water, sand and wet wool blankets. With the chaos of barking hounds, panicked horses and screaming people, that night would be remembered as terrifying to all living in Shropshire, as the fire and black smoke could be seen for miles over.
Queen Catherine fainted as she heard the news. And the king’s first question, as many others, was of course: What about the Prince and Princess of Wales? Had anybody seen them? Did anyone know where his son was? Was the Prince of Wales dead?
Author's Note: Sorry about the delays in posting, I had another writers block. Here is the imperial marriage we have been looking forward to! Bessie Blount is the sweetheart to the Prince and it's not looking good for either him or his Austrian bride right now.
The new Princess of Wales arrived like a petrel from a storm to the shores of England in July of 1517. The voyage of the emperor’s eldest daughter had not been an easy one, traveling on land from Vienna until Aachen, where she had been warmly greeted by Charles II of Croy, who had been sent to aid her journey into the low countries until she reached the english channel. She entered the city of Bruges with great ceremony, as the duke and duchess wanted to impress the future queen of England, especially the duchess. After all the imperial bride would wed her nephew and Beatrijs was keen on improving the cold relationship between her natal and married country. She would also have meet Marguerite and Philippa of Brabant during her days at court and while the eldest sister was very friendly to Elizabeth, Philippa treated her coldly. As far as she was concerned the Austrian girl had taken the match with England that her grandfather had negotiated for her own hand.
After a week of resting, the imperial party left Bruges to cross the english channel. Elizabeth of Austria had a very rough crossing and upon her arrival to Dover the frightened archduchess knelt down on the deck and loudly praised the Virgin for bringing her safely to land at last. Her entourage was meet by the Duke of Bedford, whom showed her and her companions to the comfortable refurbished Dover castle, where Elizabeth took to her chambers until the evening, when she dined with Bedford.
Elizabeth of Austria meet Prince Richard a fortnight later at Leeds Castle, a royal residence owned by Queen Catherine. Originally Leeds had been brought by Eleanor of Castile in 1278 and it was favoured by both Beatrice of Portugal and Catherine of Aragon from 1486 and onwards. The beautiful castle, situated on a small lake, proved to be a romantic setting for the two young royals. Elizabeth was sixteen years old to Richard’s fourteen at the time, but Richard seemed infatuated by his bride nevertheless. Being the daughter of a reigning emperor seemed like the grandest thing to him and her German clothes and speech made her look more foreign and interesting to his eyes. Elizabeth’s gown was cut in a different way for the English, with an open fronted gown laced over her kirtle and the narrow sleeves decorated with ribbons in contrasting colors. In addition to her dowry of 200,000 guldiner, Elizabeth brought gold and silver objects from Bohemia and jewelry given from her mother. The many bohemian garnets belonging to her became an object of fascination for the court upon her arrival and many ladies began to imitate her with their jewelry.
Leeds Castle in Kent
Their marriage was celebrated in great splendor, as benefiting an imperial bride. Elizabeth would keep many persons in her entourage, while others returned to Austria. Queen Catherine kept her new daughter in law besides her at court for the first months, to give her time to acclimate to the social fabric and get to know the courtiers and households around the king and queen. While some naysayers turned their nose up at Elizabeth, calling her a uncouth German, and wishing that the French princess Charlotte of Valois had married the prince of Wales instead, many others quickly grew to like her. As the Prince of Wales returned to his duties in Wales for the autumn, Elizabeth rooted herself in the court and carefully absorbed the queen’s lessons. She also met the ailing dowager queen Beatrice of Viseu, whom mostly lived in Coldharbour House when she was in London. Beatrice seemed happy for her grandson to be married to a daughter of a emperor, as she had despised that “that mere count’s daughter in Boulogne” even before Anne had broken her English wedding for the Count of Saint-Pol. The betrayal of the Duchess of Bedford, the wife of her son, Thomas, had enraged her and some rumors said that Beatrice had pressed for an invasion of Flanders in retribution. Its not very likely those rumors had any truth to them, as Beatrice had mostly stayed away from politics during her tenure as queen. The dowager queen died in June of 1519, much to the kingdom’s grief and the royal family. Her coffin would be taken to York cathedral with a royal progress, where she was laid to rest next to her husband, who had been buried in the north he so dearly loved. Her granddaughter, golden haired Helena of York would accompany the coffin along with her parents, whom had at last been blessed with a son, Richard of York, just over a year ago. The two children would be the only ones the Duke and Dutchess had and they were immensely cherished.
Richard and Catherine also grieved for Beatrice, but life spun on in the York kingdom and with their eldest child married, they turned their attention towards their second. Elizabeth of York had been the darling daughter ever since her birth and her parents aspired to make her the greatest match in Christendom. While the king had considered Brabant, Portugal and the Empire, Catherine had only one marriage in mind: Spain. There were few grooms as prestigious as her grand-nephew, Juan of Spain. The only son of the Prince of Asturias, Viana and Girona, he would one day inherit the empire his grandparents reigned over, making him the most eligible for a royal marriage. Almost all knew of the queen’s determination for her daughter to become Juan’s bride and Catherine had educated her daughter well for the role. She had been taught Castilian and Aragonese and a limited Catalan, how to run a large royal household, dancing, reading, hunting and other appropriate skills. Catherine and Richard had embraced the humanist movements and taken scholars into their court, to educate the royal children. Among them was Erasmus of Rotterdam, John Colet, John Fisher and Sir Thomas More, the last man being an impressive figure who caught Richard’s eye in 1511. One more Thomas had entered the court in 1508, becoming the royal chaplain. Thomas Wolsey had benefited from Richard’s attentiveness for capable people from humbler beginnings, becoming an envoy for various diplomatic tasks as well as counselor to the king. He had become Bishop of Lincoln in 1519, a great accomplishment. There were many whispers that Wolsey desired more power, but King Richard held him on a stern leash and Wolsey did not have the nerve to defy his sovereign, whose wrath could be immense when roused. Wolsey did get into the good graces of the king by handling the arrangements for his mother’s many possessions after her death.
John Colet, humanist at the court of England
England entered the year of 1520 in peace and prosperity, with cold and crisp winter days in January, followed by slush and rains for some days, that left the streets treacherously frozen in the mornings, covered by icy mud and black ice where one had to be careful to step. Thomas Wolsey found himself being called to court by the king on the 8th of February, curtsy of a rider bringing a summon. It was time to finalize the arrangements for the Princess Elizabeth’s betrothal to the Spanish infante and Wolsey would be a key person to lead the negotiations. The prince was only eleven years old and it would be three years before he was of marriageable age, while Elizabeth, being fifteen would wait until she turned eighteen to leave for Spain. The king also turned his attention to his second daughter, Beatrice of York, now ten years old. For her, either Denmark, or Brittany was a good option. Brabant would be even better, but Richard had not forgiven them for the embarrassment the English had suffered with the intended marriage to Boulogne in 1514 and thus decided to seek another match for Beatrice.
The Prince of Wales had turned seventeen years old in 1520 and had since a couple of years ago started to govern Wales in his own right. The reports showed him being an intelligent, athletic and social young man, easily charming those around him with a smile and his wits. Something that certainly went home with the ladies. Even at this rather young age, he already had a mistress and a bastard, despite being married to Elizabeth of Austria. Sir John Blount was a servant to the royal household and had fought valiantly in Boulogne in 1514, and as result his eldest daughter, Elizabeth had entered the household of the Queen a year after and later become a maid of hon our to Elizabeth of Austria in 1517. To distinguish her from her mistress, Elizabeth went by the name Bessie, often called Merry Bess, for her energy and good cheer. By 1518 she had become the prince’s sweetheart, and the mother to his first daughter, baby Anne Fitzroy.
As for his wife, Elizabeth bore her husband’s infidelity with patience. But her lack of children seemed to impact her more, as three years had passed since her marriage, but she had yet to conceive. Elizabeth regularly traveled with the queen to shrines of saints in the first years in England, most likely praying for a child, but so far, no divine intersession had come to her.
In the middle of May came the most horrific news from Wales to the court. The old castle of Ludlow, where the prince was residing had become engulfed in a terrible fire during the night on the 14th, when an exhausted scullery maid had fallen asleep surrounded by large linens and fabrics and forgot to put out her lamp. The fire was devastating, spreading quickly through floor to floor, devouring everything in its path and causing the roof to cave in. Several members of the household perished in the flames or suffocated on the thick smoke in the corridors and stairs, while guards and servants sought to desperately put out the flames with water, sand and wet wool blankets. With the chaos of barking hounds, panicked horses and screaming people, that night would be remembered as terrifying to all living in Shropshire, as the fire and black smoke could be seen for miles over.
Queen Catherine fainted as she heard the news. And the king’s first question, as many others, was of course: What about the Prince and Princess of Wales? Had anybody seen them? Did anyone know where his son was? Was the Prince of Wales dead?
Author's Note: Sorry about the delays in posting, I had another writers block. Here is the imperial marriage we have been looking forward to! Bessie Blount is the sweetheart to the Prince and it's not looking good for either him or his Austrian bride right now.
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Great chapter! @BlueFlowwer , Bessie is here! what a curious twist.
Really hope dickon made it alive
Really hope dickon made it alive