Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

[HMS St.Lawrence]

Now this makes me wonder... are we going to see an earlier bridging of the St. Lawrence down of Montréal? OTL the Québec Bridge opened in 1917 (after two catastrophic collapses in 1907 and 1916) but that might not be the case TTL.

The new border will allow a more direct railway link between Québec City and the Atlantic coast. Instead of the OTL line, where the tracks turn east at Rivière-du-Loup towards Grand-Sault, I suspect TTL we'll see a railway link between Montmagny and Perth. Albeit, I wouldn't be surprised to see a secondary line built betwee Rivière-du-Loup and Grand-Sault at a later date.

With this 'straight line' between Québec and the Maritimes combined to a substantially increased timber industry in Quebec and New Brunswick thanks to the annexed regions, there might be an bigger incentive to cross the river downstream of Montréal.

The lumber barons will likely need more mills capacity than it is available in the region. This brings up the need to ship the timbers East to Québec City for processing and export as well as to Trois-Rivières, soon to become the capital of the pulp and paper industry. Both cities sits on the northern bank of the river and would represent better option than to ship the timbers all the way to Montréal or Moncton.

Now, with the recent events of 1862-1865, hopefully the Phoenix Bridge Company won't be contracted for the construction and who knows, maybe this alternate Québec Bridge won't collapse two times!
How about a little telegram to one Benjamin Baker comes the 1880s?

 

[SWS]

The winning of Kentucky certainly grants the C.S.A. considerable geographic security and prestige. Its coal and iron may yet compensate for the loss of West Virginia's minerals.

 

[generalurist]

Damn. Loosing Kentucky is a very serious blow to the union. It puts the CSA's borders dangerously close to the great lakes.

 

[Derby]

Henry Clay

He's back?!

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

Damn. Loosing Kentucky is a very serious blow to the union. It puts the CSA's borders dangerously close to the great lakes.

I wouldn't say dangerously close, they're still well over two hundred miles away.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

He's back?!

yeah that's what I was thinking. I thought for sure I was misreading or somehow misunderstanding....

 

[The Gunslinger]

yeah that's what I was thinking. I thought for sure I was misreading or somehow misunderstanding....

Henry Clay should be quite dead by the time of the war, I think @EnglishCanuck is supposed to have meant Cassius Clay.

 

[basileus]

How many refugees are expected from Kentucky, and how and how much, they're going to impact Union politics?

 

[EnglishCanuck]

He's back?!

yeah that's what I was thinking. I thought for sure I was misreading or somehow misunderstanding....

Henry Clay should be quite dead by the time of the war, I think @EnglishCanuck is supposed to have meant Cassius Clay.

No no, Henry Clay's ghost is back haunting Kentucky!

But yes, a very silly slip on my part!

 

[SWS]

How many refugees are expected from Kentucky, and how and how much, they're going to impact Union politics?

I do wonder how William Goebel, who strikes me as an autistic politician in the same class as Eamon de Valera and Hitler, would fare outside of a State infamous for its whiskey-fueled culture of duels, feuds, vendettas, etc.

 

[DarkAvenger]

With all the problems happening in the US, you think it would be called The Sick Man of North America. And given the way this TL is going, the US loses the Great War and is subject to a Treaty of Versailles which guts it and ultimately causes it to be partitioned between a UK-leaning East and a Russia-leaning West.

EDIT: I guess I sound too harsh here so I apologize for it. I'm currently in a bad place both emotionally and mentally.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Finally!
We learn the fate of that giant potato field with some lumberyards!
I am happy!
(though last line made me question something. Who are these lumber barons?)

And with the stroke of a pen, a perennial lumber aristocracy is expanded!

The lumber barons are a collection of men who stretch from the Ottawa Valley to New Brunswick who have a hugely vested stake in the timber trade. Four our purposes, Alexander Gibson is the most important immediate member of that group because he understands the importance of milking the St. Andrews and Quebec rail line for all its worth. In the future, they'll be men who have an outsized voice in colonial policy in Canada.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

The winning of Kentucky certainly grants the C.S.A. considerable geographic security and prestige. Its coal and iron may yet compensate for the loss of West Virginia's minerals.

It grants a huge amount of geographic security (the Ohio River is a much better border than just the state lines of Tennessee) and it lets the Confederate War Department breathe easy when considering their security. However, they also have issues where they are probably going to be concerned with potential American spies, but what can you do?

And yes, its coal and iron deposits will take some of the sting out of the loss of West Virginia.

How many refugees are expected from Kentucky, and how and how much, they're going to impact Union politics?

Probably something on the order of 40,000 or so. Kentuckians had a very bumpy ride between Union and secession here. Thomas Bramlette for instance had the exact historic pedigree I described, fighting for the Union, but becoming disillusioned and throwing in his lot with secession. In fact, if you look up Reconstruction Era politicians from Kentucky a shocking number had outright Southern sympathies during the war. The people of the state may not have overtly shared them OTL, but with Kentucky being an active battleground and Lincoln declaring the state in insurrection in 1864, a lot of Kentuckians were disgusted by Washington, McClellan winning or no. Though the Confederates were hardly better, they had a fig leaf civilian government and representation in Richmond that was actually consulted more or less.

The former Kentuckians in the Union are going to be avowedly anti-Confederate, but with them being scattered to the winds by war they won't be a huge voting block on their own, so not a huge impact other than being committed to the party which toes the anti-secession line.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Now this makes me wonder... are we going to see an earlier bridging of the St. Lawrence down of Montréal? OTL the Québec Bridge opened in 1917 (after two catastrophic collapses in 1907 and 1916) but that might not be the case TTL.

The new border will allow a more direct railway link between Québec City and the Atlantic coast. Instead of the OTL line, where the tracks turn east at Rivière-du-Loup towards Grand-Sault, I suspect TTL we'll see a railway link between Montmagny and Perth. Albeit, I wouldn't be surprised to see a secondary line built betwee Rivière-du-Loup and Grand-Sault at a later date.

With this 'straight line' between Québec and the Maritimes combined to a substantially increased timber industry in Quebec and New Brunswick thanks to the annexed regions, there might be an bigger incentive to cross the river downstream of Montréal.

The lumber barons will likely need more mills capacity than it is available in the region. This brings up the need to ship the timbers East to Québec City for processing and export as well as to Trois-Rivières, soon to become the capital of the pulp and paper industry. Both cities sits on the northern bank of the river and would represent better option than to ship the timbers all the way to Montréal or Moncton.

Now, with the recent events of 1862-1865, hopefully the Phoenix Bridge Company won't be contracted for the construction and who knows, maybe this alternate Québec Bridge won't collapse two times!
How about a little telegram to one Benjamin Baker comes the 1880s?

I figure that bridging the gap earlier is realistic, though a large expense that probably won't be undertaken until the 1880s and 1890s as Canada is really being kept afloat by British loans and the 5 million deposited to them by the US every year until 1869 as per the Treaty of Rotterdam. But linking more of the Maritimes and Quebec by rail is going to be very important, and the Maritimes will now have the political clout to push the lines.

An astute observation on the new capital of paper and pulp production in Quebec

Hmmm, maybe he will get a little message in the near future! (Well, in near terms anyways...)

 

[EnglishCanuck]

With all the problems happening in the US, you think it would be called The Sick Man of North America. And given the way this TL is going, the US loses the Great War and is subject to a Treaty of Versailles which guts it and ultimately causes it to be partitioned between a UK-leaning East and a Russia-leaning West.

Not exactly. They're still the largest economy in North America, very strong militarily in 1866 compared to 1860 and have room to grow. It should be considered more of a setback rather than a terminal decline. The US would have to keep undergoing political and sectional turmoil/civil war to be considered the "Sick Man of North America" since as it stands they still control a whole lot of territory.

EDIT: I guess I sound too harsh here so I apologize for it. I'm currently in a bad place both emotionally and mentally.

Not to worry! Please take time for yourself!

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Thank you to everyone who nominated and who has voted for Wrapped in Flames in this years Turtledoves! I'm truly honored people have read and enjoyed this work for so long!

 

[HMS St.Lawrence]

But linking more of the Maritimes and Quebec by rail is going to be very important, and the Maritimes will now have the political clout to push the lines.

The area was already a cornerstone of the Canadian railway network OTL. Now with a conflict in the 1860s and pretty awful relations between Canada and the US (not that they were that good before 1917 OTL either...), this region is becoming a very big strategic lynchpin. I bet the Maritimes and Québec will try to pressure Ottawa into garrisoning the border.

An astute observation on the new capital of paper and pulp production in Quebec

If you ever find yourself in the area of Trois-Rivières, go visit the Borealis Museum. It's in the remains of one of the mills and it really puts into perspective how big and important the industry was back in the 19th and 20th centuries. I paid them a visit before Covid and it was great. A nice museum with very good staff, and a nice restaurant next to the river.

Hmmm, maybe he will get a little message in the near future! (Well, in near terms anyways...)

Good! For a moment I was almost worried that guy Cooper would end up in charge.

 

[username5243]

Thank you to everyone who nominated and who has voted for Wrapped in Flames in this years Turtledoves! I'm truly honored people have read and enjoyed this work for so long!

Gonna be honest here, I kinda assumed this had already won by now given I didn't recall this being nominated in past award seasons.

This definitely deserves it though - this is, far and away, the most in-depth exploration of what has to be one of the most common what-ifs of all time (at least from an American perspective) and I am looking forward to what you have coming up. In particular I hope we soon see how the 66 midterm elections go in the Union.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Gonna be honest here, I kinda assumed this had already won by now given I didn't recall this being nominated in past award seasons.

My sincere thanks for the praise! And I remain grateful to those who have voted! And subtly hint for more votes of course

This definitely deserves it though - this is, far and away, the most in-depth exploration of what has to be one of the most common what-ifs of all time (at least from an American perspective) and I am looking forward to what you have coming up. In particular I hope we soon see how the 66 midterm elections go in the Union.

Thank you! I'm thrilled you're enjoying this piece so far - and that you find it in depth! I'm hoping to make 1866 an exciting year, but one finished much more quickly than others! I have some thoughts on how to round it out properly!

The 1866 midterms will be interesting, as to put it mildly we are watching a slow collapse of the existing party system thanks to the ideological contradictions brought on by the war. So where people will see Democrat they may not necessarily be seeing men who are Democrats vs, well, something else. The Radical Democracy Party is going to make a showing too, though how much to the detriment of the Republicans I have yet to decide!

 

[EnglishCanuck]

The area was already a cornerstone of the Canadian railway network OTL. Now with a conflict in the 1860s and pretty awful relations between Canada and the US (not that they were that good before 1917 OTL either...), this region is becoming a very big strategic lynchpin. I bet the Maritimes and Québec will try to pressure Ottawa into garrisoning the border.

Quebec and the Maritimes (New Brunswick in particular) are kinda taking British security for granted at the moment. In Quebec there's two battalions of infantry (three in Montreal) and another two in New Brunswick plus a cavalry regiment. So Britain is making her military presence felt in this new frontier, but how long they will do so is up for debate. An up and coming Little Englander is very much questioning the financial wisdom of a large North American garrison, perhaps any garrison at all outside of Halifax...

If you ever find yourself in the area of Trois-Rivières, go visit the Borealis Museum. It's in the remains of one of the mills and it really puts into perspective how big and important the industry was back in the 19th and 20th centuries. I paid them a visit before Covid and it was great. A nice museum with very good staff, and a nice restaurant next to the river.

That does sound fascinating! Well worth my time to visit in (I hope) the near future once my work settles down for the summer!

The history of Canadian industry fascinates me, and I have plans for some changes, and for the Maritimes some big changes with their ability to not be pushed around in the Senate.

Good! For a moment I was almost worried that guy Cooper would end up in charge.

I am perhaps (thankfully) mostly unaware of his history! From the sounds of it maybe he needs to suffer an accident.